4 ms·

> You are treating democracy as a kind of populist authoritarianism where unwelcome viewpoints are suppressed. Let’s not play word games. It’s not “populist au

by rayiner 1mo ago

> You are treating democracy as a kind of populist authoritarianism where unwelcome viewpoints are suppressed. Let’s not play word games. It’s not “populist authoritarianism” to say that, in a democratic society, taxpayers shouldn’t have to bankroll journalists who don’t share their world views.

vrganj 1mo ago
Part of democracy is plurality of views. Shutting down journalists just because they're not ideologically aligned seems a bit antidemocratic to me - it's important for the fourth estate to be an independent watchdog over other institutions. What you're suggesting is something close to Orbanism or Putinism, where the media apparatus is completely captured by the ruling party. That is not an appealing proposition to me.
- rayiner 1mo ago
  > Part of democracy is plurality of views. A democracy generally will have a plurality of views. But when it comes to voting on what will receive public funding, that's based on having a majority. > it's important for the fourth estate to be an independent watchdog over other institutions. That's not democratic. That's giving a single profession the power to check a government elected by the majority.
  - vrganj 1mo ago
    > But when it comes to voting on what will receive public funding, that's based on having a majority. Why? That's the reasoning Orban used to purge the media and strengthen his corrupt regime. Private journalism already is beholden to private employers, e. g. Oligarchs like Bezos buying the post. There needs to be an independent counterweight, not what you're asking for - which would be state propaganda. > That's giving a single profession the power to check a government elected by the majority. Yes, that is the purpose of the fourth estate in a democracy, just like the third branch of government, which is also supposed to be impartial in their judgements and not be swayed by electoral concerns.
    - rayiner 1mo ago
      > > But when it comes to voting on what will receive public funding, that's based on having a majority. > Why? Because the public getting to decide how to spend their own tax dollars is the bare minimum standard for calling something a democracy. Dictating that the public must spend tax dollars on things they do not support is completely unlike constitutional protections on minorities. > Yes, that is the purpose of the fourth estate in a democracy What country has a "fourth estate" in its constitution? And who decided that journalists are it?
      - vrganj 1mo ago
        > Because the public getting to decide how to spend their own tax dollars is the bare minimum standard for calling something a democracy. Dictating that the public must spend tax dollars on things they do not support is completely unlike constitutional protections on minorities This is a strong assertion that serves more as a declaration of ideology than an argument. > What country has a "fourth estate" in its constitution? And who decided that journalists are it? I'm not really interested in the particular, as mentioned above. The point is how systems behave in the real world, with real world actors, with real world feedback loops and incentive structures, not counter-productive excursions into legalisms. The failure modes I describe are real and actually happened. I'm not terribly interested in litigating the ideological framework that produced them - ye shall know them by their fruits and all that. I'd invite you to read my longer comment above if you'd like to learn more: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49563762 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49563762
ionioagnio 1mo ago
The American version of democracy has a great many protections for minorities, whether they be intellectual, religious, or ethnic. The notion that the majority should pummel the minority into submission is perhaps a version of democracy, but not one compatible with American tradition. This is why Obama, Biden, and other politicians who support democracy had no problem funding a free and fair press while populist authoritarians have sought to dismantle it.
- rayiner 1mo ago
  That's not "democracy," that's constitutionalism, which is inherently anti-majoritarian. But constitutionalism means protection for minority viewpoints, not an obligation for taxpayers to publicly fund media they disagree with.
  - vrganj 1mo ago
    > That's not "democracy," that's constitutionalism, which is inherently anti-majoritarian That was a nice sleight of hand, but democracy and majoritariansm are not synonims. IMO majoritarianism is the failure mode of democracy - mob rule. We saw this happen in Hungary, where Orban used his majority to cement sixteen years of one-party dictatorship and only by a miracle got deposed this year. Pluralism is how democratic institutions can actually be upheld and protections like free speech can be protected from the tyranny of the majority.
    - rayiner 1mo ago
      > That was a nice sleight of hand, but democracy and majoritariansm are not synonims They are synonyms. That’s why the Founders called America a “constitutional republic” rather than a “democracy.” “Democracy” is like a color: blue, green, or red. You never find it by itself in the real world. It’s always got something else mixed in: constitutionalism, liberalism, even constitutional monarchy. And there is a good reason to be precise about using orthogonal terms in orthogonal ways. As Georgetown’s Shadi Hamid explains, conflating “democracy” with “liberalism” and Anglo/European cultural and political norms makes it very hard to understand how democracy actually operates globally: https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/05/democracys-future-in-the-middle-east-islamist-and-illiberal/361791/ https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/05/de.... More to the point here, we don’t have a democracy in the U.S. We have a constitutional republic with myriad checks on majoritarian rule: the Supreme Court, the Senate, the Electoral College, etc. Thus it’s important to be precise about when you’re saying a particular decision should be turned over to the majority and when you think majoritarian impulses must be checked by anti-majoritarian institutions. Here, I’m trying to be precise: I think the majority should get its way when deciding who to affirmatively support with taxpayer dollars. I think public spending priorities are at the core of where the people are preeminent. That’s why the House of Representatives in the U.S. and the House of Commons in the U.K. have the Power of the Purse. But the majority should be checked by courts when it comes to shutting down independent speech from private individuals.

by rayiner 1mo ago

vrganj 1mo ago

Part of democracy is plurality of views. Shutting down journalists just because they're not ideologically aligned seems a bit antidemocratic to me - it's important for the fourth estate to be an independent watchdog over other institutions. What you're suggesting is something close to Orbanism or Putinism, where the media apparatus is completely captured by the ruling party. That is not an appealing proposition to me.

rayiner 1mo ago
> Part of democracy is plurality of views. A democracy generally will have a plurality of views. But when it comes to voting on what will receive public funding, that's based on having a majority. > it's important for the fourth estate to be an independent watchdog over other institutions. That's not democratic. That's giving a single profession the power to check a government elected by the majority.
- vrganj 1mo ago
  > But when it comes to voting on what will receive public funding, that's based on having a majority. Why? That's the reasoning Orban used to purge the media and strengthen his corrupt regime. Private journalism already is beholden to private employers, e. g. Oligarchs like Bezos buying the post. There needs to be an independent counterweight, not what you're asking for - which would be state propaganda. > That's giving a single profession the power to check a government elected by the majority. Yes, that is the purpose of the fourth estate in a democracy, just like the third branch of government, which is also supposed to be impartial in their judgements and not be swayed by electoral concerns.
  - rayiner 1mo ago
    > > But when it comes to voting on what will receive public funding, that's based on having a majority. > Why? Because the public getting to decide how to spend their own tax dollars is the bare minimum standard for calling something a democracy. Dictating that the public must spend tax dollars on things they do not support is completely unlike constitutional protections on minorities. > Yes, that is the purpose of the fourth estate in a democracy What country has a "fourth estate" in its constitution? And who decided that journalists are it?
    - vrganj 1mo ago
      > Because the public getting to decide how to spend their own tax dollars is the bare minimum standard for calling something a democracy. Dictating that the public must spend tax dollars on things they do not support is completely unlike constitutional protections on minorities This is a strong assertion that serves more as a declaration of ideology than an argument. > What country has a "fourth estate" in its constitution? And who decided that journalists are it? I'm not really interested in the particular, as mentioned above. The point is how systems behave in the real world, with real world actors, with real world feedback loops and incentive structures, not counter-productive excursions into legalisms. The failure modes I describe are real and actually happened. I'm not terribly interested in litigating the ideological framework that produced them - ye shall know them by their fruits and all that. I'd invite you to read my longer comment above if you'd like to learn more: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49563762 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49563762

ionioagnio 1mo ago

The American version of democracy has a great many protections for minorities, whether they be intellectual, religious, or ethnic. The notion that the majority should pummel the minority into submission is perhaps a version of democracy, but not one compatible with American tradition. This is why Obama, Biden, and other politicians who support democracy had no problem funding a free and fair press while populist authoritarians have sought to dismantle it.

rayiner 1mo ago
That's not "democracy," that's constitutionalism, which is inherently anti-majoritarian. But constitutionalism means protection for minority viewpoints, not an obligation for taxpayers to publicly fund media they disagree with.
- vrganj 1mo ago
  > That's not "democracy," that's constitutionalism, which is inherently anti-majoritarian That was a nice sleight of hand, but democracy and majoritariansm are not synonims. IMO majoritarianism is the failure mode of democracy - mob rule. We saw this happen in Hungary, where Orban used his majority to cement sixteen years of one-party dictatorship and only by a miracle got deposed this year. Pluralism is how democratic institutions can actually be upheld and protections like free speech can be protected from the tyranny of the majority.
  - rayiner 1mo ago
    > That was a nice sleight of hand, but democracy and majoritariansm are not synonims They are synonyms. That’s why the Founders called America a “constitutional republic” rather than a “democracy.” “Democracy” is like a color: blue, green, or red. You never find it by itself in the real world. It’s always got something else mixed in: constitutionalism, liberalism, even constitutional monarchy. And there is a good reason to be precise about using orthogonal terms in orthogonal ways. As Georgetown’s Shadi Hamid explains, conflating “democracy” with “liberalism” and Anglo/European cultural and political norms makes it very hard to understand how democracy actually operates globally: https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/05/democracys-future-in-the-middle-east-islamist-and-illiberal/361791/ https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/05/de.... More to the point here, we don’t have a democracy in the U.S. We have a constitutional republic with myriad checks on majoritarian rule: the Supreme Court, the Senate, the Electoral College, etc. Thus it’s important to be precise about when you’re saying a particular decision should be turned over to the majority and when you think majoritarian impulses must be checked by anti-majoritarian institutions. Here, I’m trying to be precise: I think the majority should get its way when deciding who to affirmatively support with taxpayer dollars. I think public spending priorities are at the core of where the people are preeminent. That’s why the House of Representatives in the U.S. and the House of Commons in the U.K. have the Power of the Purse. But the majority should be checked by courts when it comes to shutting down independent speech from private individuals.