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Am I the only one that gets slightly annoyed when people redesign a Web site without being solicited? I understand redesigns like this are part of practice for

Am I the only one that gets slightly annoyed when people redesign a Web site without being solicited? I understand redesigns like this are part of practice for a designer, but sometimes I feel like these designs are "I don't like yours, mine is better," when design can be such a subjective thing. I don't really see a benefit, for example, in his redesign of EXEC: Before: https://iamexec.com/ https://iamexec.com/ After: http://kyrobeshay.com/post/20746111679/yc-facelift-exec http://kyrobeshay.com/post/20746111679/yc-facelift-exec I actually think the redesign looks worse. Is there a tangible benefit here design-wise that I'm just simply not smart enough to grasp? I find it ironic, by the way, that I'm so vehemently against rhetoric that decries skinning Bootstrap without design sense (as in that prior thread), but finding myself defending an obvious Bootstrap here as looking better. I can't connect with the feeling because I'm not a designer, but in code, if I wrote something one way and someone else rewrote it just because they like their way better, then showed it around to get buy-in, I'd be a little annoyed. If there was a tangible benefit like faster runtime, or better maintainability, that's one thing, but just because of preference? That annoys me. Maybe it's different between our lines of work.

kyro 14y ago
I've spoken to almost all of the founders of those companies and they've all been totally fine with it. If anything, they got some traffic, I got design practice and exposure, a few of the companies actually went on to change their site design, and now potentially dozens of people (probably more with 600+ downloads) have a template to play around with for their own purposes. Seems like a win-win-win-win.
- jspthrowaway2 14y ago
  Thank you for replying. Did you ask permission or forgiveness, to use the common expression? (Did you reach out before doing it or after?) I find if I do work and then approach people, people tend to be guilty about revealing their true feelings regarding the situation lest they offend me due to the work I've put in. That's the only reason I ask.
- AlphaSquared 14y ago
  I for one am glad you did what you did and then shared. The designs will help me learn more and get inspired. Thank you.
jenius 14y ago
I mean this in the least insulting way possible -- I think you just lack design sense. His redesigns are very clearly significantly better (which is why they have been so popular here on HN), and default bootstrap ALWAYS looks bad on a professional company's production site. It screams "I don't give a shit about real design so i just used bootstrap". I would urge you to study design a little more before you start critiquing designs. Design and code are vastly different disciplines -- I started as a designer then learned code later (now full time developer) and I can tell you this from experience. I regularly see you discussing design on hacker news, and everything you post about it is misguided. Educate first, then discuss.
- noibl 14y ago
  Sorry but to me the overuse of gold just says 'You can be Donald Trump.' I understand the idea behind it but the contrast between the designs highlights a problem with this kind of project: lack of input. Exec's current design makes the whole proposition feel more normal and the way they've put the personal elements up-front helps allay any latent worries about somebody being exploited. I don't think this is accidental. Web designers sometimes forget that visual communication is about so much more than layout, colours and fonts. The visual content is extremely important. And I suspect that with reference to their marketing goals, Exec have done well here. (Of course there's room for improvement.) FWIW, I think this is the weakest of the designs the OP has presented, and that because of a difference in message. Not at all saying you're bad at what you do, Kyro. Speaking of exploitation, I've downloaded the pack and will no doubt learn something from it. Thanks!
  - unreal37 14y ago
    I think the EXEC website has changed a lot since I first saw it. The "BEFORE" is not really the current website.
- jspthrowaway2 14y ago
  Whenever a reply to me starts with "I don't mean to be insulting," I know that the comment ahead is doomed to be insulting. Yours was certainly no exception and delivered every bit of insult that you claimed to not intend. I'm going to tackle your comment point-by-point to reinforce to you just how arrogantly you come across here: > I think you just lack design sense. His redesigns are very clearly significantly better ...to you. Design is subjective and, as a designer, you should know that such a statement of universal truth cannot be spoken of a design. What looks good to you, or perhaps even a majority of people you can find that agree with you, might look abhorrent to another person. There are very few universal appeals in the humanities. There's what I find appealing visually, and there's what you find appealing visually. Sometimes they align, sometimes they don't. I know designers have quantified some things like subtleties of typography and the mathematics of color, but in the end design comes down to what looks appealing in most cases (or to the client). I'm sharing my personal opinion on the specific redesign that I've pointed out, and I'm asking Hacker News if I'm missing something plainly obvious in that I don't think it's better. You implore to me that his designs are not only better, they're very clearly better, implying that not only am I stupid for asking, I'm stupid for missing the glaringly obvious reason it's better that's somewhere right in front of me. That's precisely the question I asked, and you haven't answered it; you've instead made me feel stupid for asking by reiterating it to me another way. This sort of dismissal is something I've come to expect from many designers, and it's unfortunate for the designers that genuinely love interacting with people and discussing their craft without the inherent elitism that the rest of you seem to bring into threads like this[1]. I'd say from that linked thread you tended to agree with 54mf. Hey, he said the same thing I just did[2]! > (which is why they have been so popular here on HN) Because popularity on Hacker News is an implication of something. There's two general trends for a story on Hacker News. Either something kills it early on (like a flag) and it's doomed to a life below the fold for eternity, or it gains a few crucial early votes and hits page 1. Once on page 1, what I call the bandwagon effect kicks in and it's guaranteed a trip to near the top. In either case, the popularity of a specific item on Hacker News indicates absolutely nothing. There are things regularly voted to the top that shouldn't be, merely because they hit page 1 and got to ride the bandwagon. > and default bootstrap ALWAYS looks bad on a professional company's production site. It screams "I don't give a shit about real design so i just used bootstrap". To who? You? Depending on the audience, it might not matter. A Bootstrap site for paying electric bills, for instance, isn't a big deal. We had this fight in the other thread, and I'm not going to rehash it here. It looks bad to you because you're a designer and you're looking for it. Paradoxically, you and numerous other designers were arguing against changing Bootstrap because Bootstrap looks fine in the other thread. > I would urge you to study design a little more before you start critiquing designs. Here's that elitism coming back. I don't need to study anything to know what appeals to me and what doesn't. I especially don't need to study anything to critique design. To imply otherwise is to silence dissent. Do you think film critics go to film school before they're "allowed" to write about film? Do you think automotive journalists have, by and large, designed their own vehicles? Has your average food critic earned a Michelin Star? If I tell you that the contrast between the text and the background on roots.cx makes the text nearly illegible, are you going to tell me to go study typography and color before I'm allowed to say that to you? No. Because we can identify with what appeals to us or repulses us without training of any kind, we hire designers and then work with them until we find something that we like. When's the last time you had a client that you could tell "this looks good, and you're not trained enough to tell me otherwise, here's your invoice"? > I regularly see you discussing design on hacker news, and everything you post about it is misguided No, you don't. I called you and other elitist designers out on that thread you shit all over about making Bootstrap look a little bit better, and you're remembering that and trying to paint me with a larger brush. That's the only design-related thread I've participated in on this account. Go check. I'll wait. Each and every comment I made in that thread wasn't about design. It was about the arrogance and elitism of people like you. I stand by every single one and only regret that I can't render them in boldface, since it was entirely lost on you. I abhor you for making my comment about me rather than its own merits. Yes, shoot the messenger for not being educated enough to discuss design with "real" designers, then go through my comment history and pigeonhole me as the "bad commenter re: design". Get over me and start reflecting upon your own qualities, because they leave a lot to be desired. [1]: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4927249 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4927249 [2]: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4935556 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4935556
sachingulaya 14y ago
EXEC's design when Kyro released his facelift was not really a 'design' at all. It was a very, very simple page that looked like someone put it together in under an hour(not a criticism, an observation).
michaelbuckbee 14y ago
Like most things, there is a right way and a wrong way to execute this type of thing. Kyrobeshay does things right. The redesigns are for startups that he's a fan of, the overall tone is respectful and the redesigns are well done.

kyro 14y ago

I've spoken to almost all of the founders of those companies and they've all been totally fine with it. If anything, they got some traffic, I got design practice and exposure, a few of the companies actually went on to change their site design, and now potentially dozens of people (probably more with 600+ downloads) have a template to play around with for their own purposes. Seems like a win-win-win-win.

jspthrowaway2 14y ago
Thank you for replying. Did you ask permission or forgiveness, to use the common expression? (Did you reach out before doing it or after?) I find if I do work and then approach people, people tend to be guilty about revealing their true feelings regarding the situation lest they offend me due to the work I've put in. That's the only reason I ask.
AlphaSquared 14y ago
I for one am glad you did what you did and then shared. The designs will help me learn more and get inspired. Thank you.

jenius 14y ago

I mean this in the least insulting way possible -- I think you just lack design sense. His redesigns are very clearly significantly better (which is why they have been so popular here on HN), and default bootstrap ALWAYS looks bad on a professional company's production site. It screams "I don't give a shit about real design so i just used bootstrap". I would urge you to study design a little more before you start critiquing designs. Design and code are vastly different disciplines -- I started as a designer then learned code later (now full time developer) and I can tell you this from experience. I regularly see you discussing design on hacker news, and everything you post about it is misguided. Educate first, then discuss.

noibl 14y ago
Sorry but to me the overuse of gold just says 'You can be Donald Trump.' I understand the idea behind it but the contrast between the designs highlights a problem with this kind of project: lack of input. Exec's current design makes the whole proposition feel more normal and the way they've put the personal elements up-front helps allay any latent worries about somebody being exploited. I don't think this is accidental. Web designers sometimes forget that visual communication is about so much more than layout, colours and fonts. The visual content is extremely important. And I suspect that with reference to their marketing goals, Exec have done well here. (Of course there's room for improvement.) FWIW, I think this is the weakest of the designs the OP has presented, and that because of a difference in message. Not at all saying you're bad at what you do, Kyro. Speaking of exploitation, I've downloaded the pack and will no doubt learn something from it. Thanks!
- unreal37 14y ago
  I think the EXEC website has changed a lot since I first saw it. The "BEFORE" is not really the current website.
jspthrowaway2 14y ago
Whenever a reply to me starts with "I don't mean to be insulting," I know that the comment ahead is doomed to be insulting. Yours was certainly no exception and delivered every bit of insult that you claimed to not intend. I'm going to tackle your comment point-by-point to reinforce to you just how arrogantly you come across here: > I think you just lack design sense. His redesigns are very clearly significantly better ...to you. Design is subjective and, as a designer, you should know that such a statement of universal truth cannot be spoken of a design. What looks good to you, or perhaps even a majority of people you can find that agree with you, might look abhorrent to another person. There are very few universal appeals in the humanities. There's what I find appealing visually, and there's what you find appealing visually. Sometimes they align, sometimes they don't. I know designers have quantified some things like subtleties of typography and the mathematics of color, but in the end design comes down to what looks appealing in most cases (or to the client). I'm sharing my personal opinion on the specific redesign that I've pointed out, and I'm asking Hacker News if I'm missing something plainly obvious in that I don't think it's better. You implore to me that his designs are not only better, they're very clearly better, implying that not only am I stupid for asking, I'm stupid for missing the glaringly obvious reason it's better that's somewhere right in front of me. That's precisely the question I asked, and you haven't answered it; you've instead made me feel stupid for asking by reiterating it to me another way. This sort of dismissal is something I've come to expect from many designers, and it's unfortunate for the designers that genuinely love interacting with people and discussing their craft without the inherent elitism that the rest of you seem to bring into threads like this[1]. I'd say from that linked thread you tended to agree with 54mf. Hey, he said the same thing I just did[2]! > (which is why they have been so popular here on HN) Because popularity on Hacker News is an implication of something. There's two general trends for a story on Hacker News. Either something kills it early on (like a flag) and it's doomed to a life below the fold for eternity, or it gains a few crucial early votes and hits page 1. Once on page 1, what I call the bandwagon effect kicks in and it's guaranteed a trip to near the top. In either case, the popularity of a specific item on Hacker News indicates absolutely nothing. There are things regularly voted to the top that shouldn't be, merely because they hit page 1 and got to ride the bandwagon. > and default bootstrap ALWAYS looks bad on a professional company's production site. It screams "I don't give a shit about real design so i just used bootstrap". To who? You? Depending on the audience, it might not matter. A Bootstrap site for paying electric bills, for instance, isn't a big deal. We had this fight in the other thread, and I'm not going to rehash it here. It looks bad to you because you're a designer and you're looking for it. Paradoxically, you and numerous other designers were arguing against changing Bootstrap because Bootstrap looks fine in the other thread. > I would urge you to study design a little more before you start critiquing designs. Here's that elitism coming back. I don't need to study anything to know what appeals to me and what doesn't. I especially don't need to study anything to critique design. To imply otherwise is to silence dissent. Do you think film critics go to film school before they're "allowed" to write about film? Do you think automotive journalists have, by and large, designed their own vehicles? Has your average food critic earned a Michelin Star? If I tell you that the contrast between the text and the background on roots.cx makes the text nearly illegible, are you going to tell me to go study typography and color before I'm allowed to say that to you? No. Because we can identify with what appeals to us or repulses us without training of any kind, we hire designers and then work with them until we find something that we like. When's the last time you had a client that you could tell "this looks good, and you're not trained enough to tell me otherwise, here's your invoice"? > I regularly see you discussing design on hacker news, and everything you post about it is misguided No, you don't. I called you and other elitist designers out on that thread you shit all over about making Bootstrap look a little bit better, and you're remembering that and trying to paint me with a larger brush. That's the only design-related thread I've participated in on this account. Go check. I'll wait. Each and every comment I made in that thread wasn't about design. It was about the arrogance and elitism of people like you. I stand by every single one and only regret that I can't render them in boldface, since it was entirely lost on you. I abhor you for making my comment about me rather than its own merits. Yes, shoot the messenger for not being educated enough to discuss design with "real" designers, then go through my comment history and pigeonhole me as the "bad commenter re: design". Get over me and start reflecting upon your own qualities, because they leave a lot to be desired. [1]: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4927249 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4927249 [2]: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4935556 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4935556

sachingulaya 14y ago

EXEC's design when Kyro released his facelift was not really a 'design' at all. It was a very, very simple page that looked like someone put it together in under an hour(not a criticism, an observation).

michaelbuckbee 14y ago

Like most things, there is a right way and a wrong way to execute this type of thing. Kyrobeshay does things right. The redesigns are for startups that he's a fan of, the overall tone is respectful and the redesigns are well done.