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> imagine if in The Netherlands you can waltz in and say you are this person or that person That's not at all how it works. Typically, you do need to present I

> imagine if in The Netherlands you can waltz in and say you are this person or that person That's not at all how it works. Typically, you do need to present ID to register. You also need to verify your address on the day of voting. If someone does commit fraud, it's easy to detect: as soon as the real voter tries to vote, the system will detect a "double vote." The fact that this almost never happens suggests that there is not much fraud, if any. And the amount of fraud required to actually change an election result with this method would require a concerted effort of tens of thousands of people, all risking federal prosecution. > that is literally the American system. No. Please stop misrepresenting the facts. > But why not just... require ID to vote? There are lots of good reasons, which you are probably already aware of, including the fact that many people eligible to vote do not have the requisite ID and are unlikely to get it. My litmus test for supporting voter ID is that it is accompanied by (a) free, mandatory, and automatic national ID cards, and (b) national holiday on election days. Republicans won't support part A for their own ideological reasons, and moreover their purported effort to support voter integrity is not sincere: the goal is simply to prevent undesirable (i.e. non-Republican) voters from voting.

microtonal 24d ago
many people eligible to vote do not have the requisite ID and are unlikely to get it Just trying to understand as a non-American: which people are eligible to vote, but are unlikely to get an ID?
- gorbypark 24d ago
  Canadian here, so take with a grain of salt. Both Canada and the US don't have a national ID system, at all (short of a passport). A state/province issued driver's license is the default form of ID. If you don't have a driver's license it is very possible you don't have an ID. Most (if not all?) states and provinces will have some form of "non driving" ID available if needed. However, it is optional, costs money and requires other documentation to get it, such as an original copy of a birth certificate. It's not that uncommon for an adult to not have an official ID. Either they never had one or have lost theirs and they haven't bothered/can't afford to get a new one. The argument is that Republicans are exploiting the fact that this will disproportionately affect Democratic voters. Would some Republican voters be turned away? Of course. Would more Democratic voters be turned away than Republicans? Very very likely, and that's the point. It's a net win for one party to enforce voting ID laws while also not supporting some sort of free/cheap universal identity system.
  - MisterMower 24d ago
    > It’s not that uncommon for an adult to not have an ID It’s extremely uncommon. You need an ID to buy beer, open a bank account, prove you are eligible for employment, pick up a prescription at the pharmacy, book a hotel room, the list is very long. You cannot function in society without some form of ID. The idea that a large number of Americans are being disenfranchised because they don’t have ID is farcical.
    - hackyhacky 24d ago
      > It’s extremely uncommon. 34 million people [1] or about 10 percent of the US population lack a form of ID that would be required under a voter ID law. The fact that you assert otherwise, without evide, shows that you live in a privilege bubble. None of your friends lack an ID, so you conclude it's rare. [1] https://voteriders.org/article/who-doesnt-have-an-id-in-america-today/ https://voteriders.org/article/who-doesnt-have-an-id-in-amer...
      - MisterMower 11d ago
        Thank you for the link, it very much proves my point. Let me walk you through the claims with you one by one: "Nearly 21 million voting-age U.S. citizens do not have a current (non-expired) driver’s license." A driver's license is not the only form of ID permissible to vote. You can vote using other forms of ID. Additionally, most states allow people over a certain age to use an expired ID to vote. "Another 12% (28.6 million) have a non-expired license, but it does not have both their current address and current name." People move and people get married. The average American will move 12 times in their lives and get married at least once. These people will get their license updated. They have one in the first place that isn't expired, after all. Again, you can vote using other forms of ID beyond a driver's license, and furthermore, a driver's license with an old address is still valid to prove your identity. "Millions of Americans across political parties do not have a license." Again, the fixation on driver's licenses is a canard. Millions of American's aren't eligible to drive, so you would expect them not to have driver's licenses. "People with less education and lower annual incomes are more likely to lack a current driver’s license." Yes, people who can't afford to own a car are less likely to have a driver's license. "People with a disability are far more likely to lack a current driver’s license." Wow, what an insightful finding. People that are not able to drive don't have driver's licenses. Here's a fun quote from your own link that refutes exactly what you are claiming: Only "nineteen percent of individuals without a driver’s license cite bureaucratic or economic factors as the reasons for which they do not have a license." The rest weren't interested, or weren't eligible due to legal difficulties. That means that only 4 million of the 21 million people who don't have a license can't get a license for the reason you're claiming. That's 1% of the entire country. In a nutshell, only 1% of Americans are too incompetent to figure out how to apply for a license or too lazy to stand in line and fill out the paperwork to get one. Everybody else either has one, has a good reason they don't want one, or should not have one. And that doesn't even mean that these people can't vote, only that they don't have a driver's license. It's entirely possible those people have other forms of ID. Open your eyes friend. People are disenfranchised everyday, but it isn't because the mean old DMV denied them a driver's license.
- atmavatar 23d ago
  A significant fraction are non-whites. Many who were born before segregation ended in the mid-1960s were not granted birth certificates, as their mothers were forced to use midwives during birth because local hospitals were whites only and turned them away. See: https://atlantablackstar.com/2025/05/07/florida-woman-real-id-never-issued-a-birth-certificate-and-repeatedly-denied-one/ https://atlantablackstar.com/2025/05/07/florida-woman-real-i... See: https://chicagodefender.com/black-woman-born-during-jim-crow-era-says-she-cant-get-real-id/ https://chicagodefender.com/black-woman-born-during-jim-crow... See: https://academic.oup.com/north-carolina-scholarship-online/book/46254/chapter-abstract/406187617?login=false&redirectedFrom=fulltext https://academic.oup.com/north-carolina-scholarship-online/b...
xienze 24d ago
> as soon as the real voter tries to vote, the system will detect a "double vote." And which of the two people are lying? Would you have to... verify ID to figure that out?
- hackyhacky 24d ago
  I'm assuming that your question is not offered in good faith, but just in case I'm wrong: no, you could just see where they live.

microtonal 24d ago

many people eligible to vote do not have the requisite ID and are unlikely to get it Just trying to understand as a non-American: which people are eligible to vote, but are unlikely to get an ID?

gorbypark 24d ago
Canadian here, so take with a grain of salt. Both Canada and the US don't have a national ID system, at all (short of a passport). A state/province issued driver's license is the default form of ID. If you don't have a driver's license it is very possible you don't have an ID. Most (if not all?) states and provinces will have some form of "non driving" ID available if needed. However, it is optional, costs money and requires other documentation to get it, such as an original copy of a birth certificate. It's not that uncommon for an adult to not have an official ID. Either they never had one or have lost theirs and they haven't bothered/can't afford to get a new one. The argument is that Republicans are exploiting the fact that this will disproportionately affect Democratic voters. Would some Republican voters be turned away? Of course. Would more Democratic voters be turned away than Republicans? Very very likely, and that's the point. It's a net win for one party to enforce voting ID laws while also not supporting some sort of free/cheap universal identity system.
- MisterMower 24d ago
  > It’s not that uncommon for an adult to not have an ID It’s extremely uncommon. You need an ID to buy beer, open a bank account, prove you are eligible for employment, pick up a prescription at the pharmacy, book a hotel room, the list is very long. You cannot function in society without some form of ID. The idea that a large number of Americans are being disenfranchised because they don’t have ID is farcical.
  - hackyhacky 24d ago
    > It’s extremely uncommon. 34 million people [1] or about 10 percent of the US population lack a form of ID that would be required under a voter ID law. The fact that you assert otherwise, without evide, shows that you live in a privilege bubble. None of your friends lack an ID, so you conclude it's rare. [1] https://voteriders.org/article/who-doesnt-have-an-id-in-america-today/ https://voteriders.org/article/who-doesnt-have-an-id-in-amer...
    - MisterMower 11d ago
      Thank you for the link, it very much proves my point. Let me walk you through the claims with you one by one: "Nearly 21 million voting-age U.S. citizens do not have a current (non-expired) driver’s license." A driver's license is not the only form of ID permissible to vote. You can vote using other forms of ID. Additionally, most states allow people over a certain age to use an expired ID to vote. "Another 12% (28.6 million) have a non-expired license, but it does not have both their current address and current name." People move and people get married. The average American will move 12 times in their lives and get married at least once. These people will get their license updated. They have one in the first place that isn't expired, after all. Again, you can vote using other forms of ID beyond a driver's license, and furthermore, a driver's license with an old address is still valid to prove your identity. "Millions of Americans across political parties do not have a license." Again, the fixation on driver's licenses is a canard. Millions of American's aren't eligible to drive, so you would expect them not to have driver's licenses. "People with less education and lower annual incomes are more likely to lack a current driver’s license." Yes, people who can't afford to own a car are less likely to have a driver's license. "People with a disability are far more likely to lack a current driver’s license." Wow, what an insightful finding. People that are not able to drive don't have driver's licenses. Here's a fun quote from your own link that refutes exactly what you are claiming: Only "nineteen percent of individuals without a driver’s license cite bureaucratic or economic factors as the reasons for which they do not have a license." The rest weren't interested, or weren't eligible due to legal difficulties. That means that only 4 million of the 21 million people who don't have a license can't get a license for the reason you're claiming. That's 1% of the entire country. In a nutshell, only 1% of Americans are too incompetent to figure out how to apply for a license or too lazy to stand in line and fill out the paperwork to get one. Everybody else either has one, has a good reason they don't want one, or should not have one. And that doesn't even mean that these people can't vote, only that they don't have a driver's license. It's entirely possible those people have other forms of ID. Open your eyes friend. People are disenfranchised everyday, but it isn't because the mean old DMV denied them a driver's license.
atmavatar 23d ago
A significant fraction are non-whites. Many who were born before segregation ended in the mid-1960s were not granted birth certificates, as their mothers were forced to use midwives during birth because local hospitals were whites only and turned them away. See: https://atlantablackstar.com/2025/05/07/florida-woman-real-id-never-issued-a-birth-certificate-and-repeatedly-denied-one/ https://atlantablackstar.com/2025/05/07/florida-woman-real-i... See: https://chicagodefender.com/black-woman-born-during-jim-crow-era-says-she-cant-get-real-id/ https://chicagodefender.com/black-woman-born-during-jim-crow... See: https://academic.oup.com/north-carolina-scholarship-online/book/46254/chapter-abstract/406187617?login=false&redirectedFrom=fulltext https://academic.oup.com/north-carolina-scholarship-online/b...

xienze 24d ago

> as soon as the real voter tries to vote, the system will detect a "double vote." And which of the two people are lying? Would you have to... verify ID to figure that out?

hackyhacky 24d ago
I'm assuming that your question is not offered in good faith, but just in case I'm wrong: no, you could just see where they live.