4 ms·

> Hmm... Let's try reframing this: "as much as it seems beloved here, people that install their own operating systems on PCs are the very definition of niche us

by yaro330 1mo ago

> Hmm... Let's try reframing this: "as much as it seems beloved here, people that install their own operating systems on PCs are the very definition of niche users" I mean yeah, 99% of people never installed an OS and never will, what's your point here?

timschmidt 1mo ago
> 99% of people never installed an OS and never will, what's your point here? That the 1% who do build visicalc, Linux, the internet, Google, and every application and innovation that happens outside the corporate wall. The entire ecosystem everyone else ends up using. And that calling that niche is ridiculous, shortsighted, and shooting oneself as a platform owner in the foot.
- yaro330 1mo ago
  What are you talking about? You're making zero sense. I've been in the niche of modifying and installing my own ROMs, then to kernels, and now doing the same things commercially. It is a niche, it always was. There was never a mass community of users, the most installs you used to see on any given AOSP based project is maybe 20-30K for the most popular devices like Redmis, Pocos or Google Nexus phones. It's still a niche, and things that users do and used to do to their phones are fundamentally incompatible with Android's security model. Root access, magisk, xposed, overall zero or near zero security validation from the security perspective on all ROMs but Graphene (maybe some others, I haven't followed the sphere for a while).
  - timschmidt 1mo ago
    > It is a niche, it always was. Again, only because the platforms are locked down and there is no single standardized target for universally bootable ROMs in the way a Linux ISO can boot on any PC. Kinda sounds like you might be younger and didn't live through the 8bit micro -> PC transition. Standardization of the platform led to a cambrian explosion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influence_of_the_IBM_PC_on_the_personal_computer_market#%22Is_it_PC_compatible?%22 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influence_of_the_IBM_PC_on_the...
    - yaro330 1mo ago
      > Again, only because the platforms are locked down and there is no single standardized target for universally bootable ROMs in the way a Linux ISO can boot on any PC. Couple of things here. Android was never that open to begin with. There were always (and still going) issues with the kernel sources being withheld indefinitely, AOSP side changes are almost never released at all, iirc only Google released anything. Bootloaders were always an issue, not all manufacturers had unlockable (or easily unlockable) bootloaders. Ironically, Google were always the spearhead of the standartization in the Android world. Project Treble and stuff resulted in the fact that almost any Android device released these days can run a generic Android image, it's not gonna be as functional as the original Android, but it's something. Yes, I am on the younger side, that's why I know how it was in the Android world. Nobody is interested in reinstalling OS-es on their phones because the amount of effort to create an Android ISO that's as usable as what's preinstalled is truly gigantic. Android flavours are heavily customized for the needs of the OEM, and for the hardware that they're gonna run on. It's a niche, always was and always will be. A niche powered by a few large players like LOS or GOS, that actually get paid somehow or heavily work for the idea, and an army of teenage unpaid maintainers, who quit the maintainership as soon as they get a properly paying job that takes most of their time (me).
      - timschmidt 1mo ago
        > Nobody is interested in reinstalling OS-es on their phones because the amount of effort to create an Android ISO that's as usable as what's preinstalled is truly gigantic. You've restated my thesis. > Yes, I am on the younger side I could tell.
        yaro330 1mo ago
        It's pretty clear that you have an extremely limited exposure to the custom Android development space, since you never rebutted any of the points I brought up. Custom android was never easy and never will be. And it's fundamentally incompatible with the concept of having a truly secure env on your device (same as in the PC space, ironically enough).
  - HybridStatAnim8 28d ago
    GrapheneOS has ~500000+ users and climbing. It is getting rapid mainstream awareness and appeal and is partnered with a top 10 OEM.

by yaro330 1mo ago

timschmidt 1mo ago

> 99% of people never installed an OS and never will, what's your point here? That the 1% who do build visicalc, Linux, the internet, Google, and every application and innovation that happens outside the corporate wall. The entire ecosystem everyone else ends up using. And that calling that niche is ridiculous, shortsighted, and shooting oneself as a platform owner in the foot.

yaro330 1mo ago
What are you talking about? You're making zero sense. I've been in the niche of modifying and installing my own ROMs, then to kernels, and now doing the same things commercially. It is a niche, it always was. There was never a mass community of users, the most installs you used to see on any given AOSP based project is maybe 20-30K for the most popular devices like Redmis, Pocos or Google Nexus phones. It's still a niche, and things that users do and used to do to their phones are fundamentally incompatible with Android's security model. Root access, magisk, xposed, overall zero or near zero security validation from the security perspective on all ROMs but Graphene (maybe some others, I haven't followed the sphere for a while).
- timschmidt 1mo ago
  > It is a niche, it always was. Again, only because the platforms are locked down and there is no single standardized target for universally bootable ROMs in the way a Linux ISO can boot on any PC. Kinda sounds like you might be younger and didn't live through the 8bit micro -> PC transition. Standardization of the platform led to a cambrian explosion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influence_of_the_IBM_PC_on_the_personal_computer_market#%22Is_it_PC_compatible?%22 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influence_of_the_IBM_PC_on_the...
  - yaro330 1mo ago
    > Again, only because the platforms are locked down and there is no single standardized target for universally bootable ROMs in the way a Linux ISO can boot on any PC. Couple of things here. Android was never that open to begin with. There were always (and still going) issues with the kernel sources being withheld indefinitely, AOSP side changes are almost never released at all, iirc only Google released anything. Bootloaders were always an issue, not all manufacturers had unlockable (or easily unlockable) bootloaders. Ironically, Google were always the spearhead of the standartization in the Android world. Project Treble and stuff resulted in the fact that almost any Android device released these days can run a generic Android image, it's not gonna be as functional as the original Android, but it's something. Yes, I am on the younger side, that's why I know how it was in the Android world. Nobody is interested in reinstalling OS-es on their phones because the amount of effort to create an Android ISO that's as usable as what's preinstalled is truly gigantic. Android flavours are heavily customized for the needs of the OEM, and for the hardware that they're gonna run on. It's a niche, always was and always will be. A niche powered by a few large players like LOS or GOS, that actually get paid somehow or heavily work for the idea, and an army of teenage unpaid maintainers, who quit the maintainership as soon as they get a properly paying job that takes most of their time (me).
    - timschmidt 1mo ago
      > Nobody is interested in reinstalling OS-es on their phones because the amount of effort to create an Android ISO that's as usable as what's preinstalled is truly gigantic. You've restated my thesis. > Yes, I am on the younger side I could tell.
      - yaro330 1mo ago
        It's pretty clear that you have an extremely limited exposure to the custom Android development space, since you never rebutted any of the points I brought up. Custom android was never easy and never will be. And it's fundamentally incompatible with the concept of having a truly secure env on your device (same as in the PC space, ironically enough).
- HybridStatAnim8 28d ago
  GrapheneOS has ~500000+ users and climbing. It is getting rapid mainstream awareness and appeal and is partnered with a top 10 OEM.