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I think what's needed here is for A/I to go the ECHR. A state failing to prevent foreign sanctions from restricting the freedom of association of its citizens

I think what's needed here is for A/I to go the ECHR. A state failing to prevent foreign sanctions from restricting the freedom of association of its citizens is certainly a breach of article 11. It doesn't matter whether it's caused by a foreign state, the duty of Italy is clearly to ensure freedom of association in practice.

graemep 1mo ago
How is Italy going to do that? You could argue that all the nations that have signed up to the ICC have a duty to protect its officers from American sanctions and that is clearly not happening.
- impossiblefork 1mo ago
  The ICC already has the authority to punish people who interfere with its operations. It's on them to prosecute people who cooperate with sanctions and the like to retaliate against the judges or lawyers or others working for the court, and they can do that any time they like. Literally, they can write a warrant for the president of their bank, or the highest Microsoft rep in Europe, or anybody involved in any way, and the ICC-signatory country they're in must hand them over. They have the authority.
  - graemep 1mo ago
    In theory, but I do not convinced countries are actually going to start handing over bank CEOs for doing something they were forced to do.
    - toyg 1mo ago
      At some point, someone must be held to account for "just following order". We know what happens otherwise.
    - impossiblefork 1mo ago
      I don't see how they could legally intervene. Most EU countries have very independent court systems. Once the warrant is sent to the states, it will be enforced.
      - deaux 1mo ago
        In EU countries with independent court systems, those EU governments routinely ignore court decisions they don't like. I did a very deep dive into this. There is no European country where checks and balances consistently, properly work. Surprisingly enough among EU countries, Austria gets relatively close to adherence. Canada is likely the best at it globally (and yes, that takes into account "notwithstanding").
      - graemep 1mo ago
        How is the EU relevant to the ICC? EU countries have different systems, lots of countries in the rest of the world are ICC members have independent court systems? I think people here often forget that most of the world is neither the US or the EU.
rich_sasha 1mo ago
US will just sanction Italy and/or ECHR. They already sanctioned ICC iirc. I’m not saying it’s good or that you shouldn’t fight back, only it’s like looking for a court ruling when your neighbour is invading you. They’ll invade you with or without a court ruling.
- applfanboysbgon 1mo ago
  US sanctions become worthless if they try to sanction a member of the EU, so... mission accomplished? Your analogy doesn't make any sense. The entire point is to bring the attention to state-level conflict where it will be resolved diplomatically as a matter between states rather than allowing a foreign state to bully individual citizens who have no power to confront it.
  - rich_sasha 1mo ago
    Not at all. US already holds most of financial world hostage. Financial firms all over the world are invited to opt in to provide information on assets held by US citizens. Many a non-US citizen have been baffled when opening accounts away from the US, yet being asked if they are, by the by, a US citizen. You don’t want to opt in? No problem. In return the US will apply a punitive fee of, can’t quite remember, 30-50% to all USD transactions you touch. No sanctions, no extraterritorial laws needed. No serious financial institution outside of North Korea can really afford this. I’d imagine that’s what happened here. The consequences of not complying with the US sanctions would likely be terminal for the bank, and no European court can really contest it. The US’s stranglehold on the global financial ecosystem is incredibly powerful. You can bring attention all you like. The point is that the US has so much raw power in this kind of food fight that they will just cover you with burger buns and walk past, hardly noticing you were there.
    - deleted 1mo ago
      [deleted]
    - toyg 1mo ago
      This is why building serious financial infrastructure alternatives should be n.1 on the EU agenda. From payment processors to clearing, Europe must wrangle control of their own money from the US.
selfhoster1312 1mo ago
To my knowledge you can only go to the EHCR once you have depleted all your national legal options, which can take about a decade here in Europe. Given that the Italian government is now run by actual neofascists, who also control most of european institutions (hand in hand with the classic "liberals"), i don't think a small non-profit anarchist host has much chance to win in court. Even if they do win in court, it will be far too late for their thousands of @autistici.org emails. And even with a court victory, there's no guarantee technical intermediaries may ignore US sanctions (despite what EU ruling says). The only real solution is to get rid of US hegemony over the DNS, the banking system, the global military balance, etc.
- tancop 1mo ago
  > i don't think a small non-profit anarchist host has much chance to win in court Nobody is expecting them to win in Italy. The point of the ECHR is you go there after you lose multiple times in your own country and you think your local laws or court system are so unjust that it violates human rights. > it will be far too late for their thousands of @autistici.org emails They can accept cash and crypto donations, like any Russian pirate site but easier because the organization itself is still legal in Italy. Getting debanked is always hard but they don't need to give up and shut down everything. Running services at A/I scale is not that expensive, and even if they have to shut down they would let all users know ahead of time so they can archive their data.
  - selfhoster1312 1mo ago
    > They can accept cash and crypto donations Sure, but what about users not receiving email? I mean some operators like Riseup could hardcode autistici.org to a new domain to resolve, but not every email operator is going to do this. Or is my understanding that they provide @autistici.org mailboxes wrong?

graemep 1mo ago

How is Italy going to do that? You could argue that all the nations that have signed up to the ICC have a duty to protect its officers from American sanctions and that is clearly not happening.

impossiblefork 1mo ago
The ICC already has the authority to punish people who interfere with its operations. It's on them to prosecute people who cooperate with sanctions and the like to retaliate against the judges or lawyers or others working for the court, and they can do that any time they like. Literally, they can write a warrant for the president of their bank, or the highest Microsoft rep in Europe, or anybody involved in any way, and the ICC-signatory country they're in must hand them over. They have the authority.
- graemep 1mo ago
  In theory, but I do not convinced countries are actually going to start handing over bank CEOs for doing something they were forced to do.
  - toyg 1mo ago
    At some point, someone must be held to account for "just following order". We know what happens otherwise.
  - impossiblefork 1mo ago
    I don't see how they could legally intervene. Most EU countries have very independent court systems. Once the warrant is sent to the states, it will be enforced.
    - deaux 1mo ago
      In EU countries with independent court systems, those EU governments routinely ignore court decisions they don't like. I did a very deep dive into this. There is no European country where checks and balances consistently, properly work. Surprisingly enough among EU countries, Austria gets relatively close to adherence. Canada is likely the best at it globally (and yes, that takes into account "notwithstanding").
    - graemep 1mo ago
      How is the EU relevant to the ICC? EU countries have different systems, lots of countries in the rest of the world are ICC members have independent court systems? I think people here often forget that most of the world is neither the US or the EU.

rich_sasha 1mo ago

US will just sanction Italy and/or ECHR. They already sanctioned ICC iirc. I’m not saying it’s good or that you shouldn’t fight back, only it’s like looking for a court ruling when your neighbour is invading you. They’ll invade you with or without a court ruling.

applfanboysbgon 1mo ago
US sanctions become worthless if they try to sanction a member of the EU, so... mission accomplished? Your analogy doesn't make any sense. The entire point is to bring the attention to state-level conflict where it will be resolved diplomatically as a matter between states rather than allowing a foreign state to bully individual citizens who have no power to confront it.
- rich_sasha 1mo ago
  Not at all. US already holds most of financial world hostage. Financial firms all over the world are invited to opt in to provide information on assets held by US citizens. Many a non-US citizen have been baffled when opening accounts away from the US, yet being asked if they are, by the by, a US citizen. You don’t want to opt in? No problem. In return the US will apply a punitive fee of, can’t quite remember, 30-50% to all USD transactions you touch. No sanctions, no extraterritorial laws needed. No serious financial institution outside of North Korea can really afford this. I’d imagine that’s what happened here. The consequences of not complying with the US sanctions would likely be terminal for the bank, and no European court can really contest it. The US’s stranglehold on the global financial ecosystem is incredibly powerful. You can bring attention all you like. The point is that the US has so much raw power in this kind of food fight that they will just cover you with burger buns and walk past, hardly noticing you were there.
  - deleted 1mo ago
    [deleted]
  - toyg 1mo ago
    This is why building serious financial infrastructure alternatives should be n.1 on the EU agenda. From payment processors to clearing, Europe must wrangle control of their own money from the US.

selfhoster1312 1mo ago

To my knowledge you can only go to the EHCR once you have depleted all your national legal options, which can take about a decade here in Europe. Given that the Italian government is now run by actual neofascists, who also control most of european institutions (hand in hand with the classic "liberals"), i don't think a small non-profit anarchist host has much chance to win in court. Even if they do win in court, it will be far too late for their thousands of @autistici.org emails. And even with a court victory, there's no guarantee technical intermediaries may ignore US sanctions (despite what EU ruling says). The only real solution is to get rid of US hegemony over the DNS, the banking system, the global military balance, etc.

tancop 1mo ago
> i don't think a small non-profit anarchist host has much chance to win in court Nobody is expecting them to win in Italy. The point of the ECHR is you go there after you lose multiple times in your own country and you think your local laws or court system are so unjust that it violates human rights. > it will be far too late for their thousands of @autistici.org emails They can accept cash and crypto donations, like any Russian pirate site but easier because the organization itself is still legal in Italy. Getting debanked is always hard but they don't need to give up and shut down everything. Running services at A/I scale is not that expensive, and even if they have to shut down they would let all users know ahead of time so they can archive their data.
- selfhoster1312 1mo ago
  > They can accept cash and crypto donations Sure, but what about users not receiving email? I mean some operators like Riseup could hardcode autistici.org to a new domain to resolve, but not every email operator is going to do this. Or is my understanding that they provide @autistici.org mailboxes wrong?