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I grew up in that tradition, so I can shed some light: The fear of a national ID isn’t just about tracking and privacy, but that an individual cannot participat

I grew up in that tradition, so I can shed some light: The fear of a national ID isn’t just about tracking and privacy, but that an individual cannot participate in society or survive if the government decides to revoke the id. Meaning, I can’t buy food; rent or buy a home; or hold any sort of job and earn and save. What we have today isn’t better, but until recently I was hard pressed to see how such fears were even warranted.

embedding-shape 1mo ago
> but that an individual cannot participate in society or survive if the government decides to revoke the id What would happen today if your government revokes a SSN which is your de facto "personal identification number" today? Can you still rent/buy a home? Can you have a job?
- iamnothere 1mo ago
  Some US citizens don’t even have SSNs, believe it or not. The Amish get by just fine.
  - embedding-shape 1mo ago
    Is it generally considered that The Amish "participates in society"? I thought the whole point for them was that they're "outside of modern society", to some degree at least.
    - iamnothere 1mo ago
      They participate in their own society, which allows them to survive in their own way. In other countries, national IDs have often been followed by mandatory registration requirements for renting or owning property, employment, etc. At present there are ways to get around using ID for many things, and it should stay that way.
- nobodyandproud 1mo ago
  Before my time, but I believe SSN was and probably still is controversial in my circle. I definitely recall rumblings about it even 30 years ago. But while cash is printed (physical currency): Not having an SSN becomes a major impediment but not impossible to make transactions and survive. Our migrant workers—who are basically carrying white collar workers like me—are proof of this.
  - embedding-shape 1mo ago
    Isn't all of those cases then also proof that if the SSN was a government ID instead, all of those things would have been the same? The ID wouldn't "impossible to make transactions and survive", just an impediment, just like not having a SSN is today. Point is, the US already basically have a de facto "ID card", they just don't call it as such (yet?), so claiming somehow correctly labeling this thing would make things worse or more difficult, doesn't make much sense.
    - dghlsakjg 1mo ago
      You can't really identify someone by their SSN. My card is literally just a piece of cardstock paper with a name and number, and no one has ever asked to see it. There is no photo. There is no security.
      - embedding-shape 1mo ago
        Say you go to your local bank today and ask to sign up for a new bank account, what sort of documents do they ask for? Passport? Drivers license?
        dghlsakjg 1mo ago
        Government issued id with a photo is typically the requirement depending on the bank and their KYC. That can be a military id, passport, NEXUS card, DL, state ID.
iamnothere 1mo ago
Exactly. You do not want to hand the US government the ability to “turn off” someone’s daily life at the press of a button. Things are already bad enough as it is, but at least it’s still possible to get by even if the system takes a dislike to you.
- embedding-shape 1mo ago
  > Exactly. You do not want to hand the US government the ability to “turn off” someone’s daily life at the press of a button. If you're within the borders of the US, this ability already exists, they have a monopoly on violence in the country, something the government is very eager to demonstrate this year.
  - iamnothere 1mo ago
    There’s a lot of room between violence and financial isolation. The government has shown multiple times that it is willing to go after otherwise law-abiding citizens who take up disfavored careers, whether it’s gun dealers and payday lenders in Operation Choke Point, cannabis dispensaries in states where it was legal, or online cam girls. In all of these cases, going to cash or using alternatives to the banking system was possible and even necessary for them to survive.
    - embedding-shape 1mo ago
      And none of those examples you use, involve SSNs, these are all 100% paperless people/companies? Makes me wonder how they got bank accounts in the first place if they're so disconnected from society.
      - iamnothere 1mo ago
        The individuals had SSNs, but did not have a hypothetical national ID connected to systems that could have been used to fully isolate them. As long as backchannels exist in the system to accommodate those without SSNs/DLs, it is possible to get by even if the system tries to cut you off.
Tangurena2 1mo ago
> The fear of a national ID isn’t just about tracking and privacy, but that an individual cannot participate in society or survive if the government decides to revoke the id. This is because the US made a critical flaw by tying the authentication and authorization tokens into one single token - your driving license/ID. They should be separate things. Your authentication token (who are you?) should have your picture and be forgery resistant. Your authorization token (what can you do?) should be a piece of plastic with zero pictures (like your insurance card). Did you get stopped for DUI? The officer takes your authorization token, instead, the officer confiscates both tokens and hands you a paper receipt. The FAA does it the smart way, your authorization token (pilot's license) has no photo. You do something stupid, the ATC tells you to "call this number" and if it is really badly stupid, then the local FAA person confiscates your authorization token.

embedding-shape 1mo ago

> but that an individual cannot participate in society or survive if the government decides to revoke the id What would happen today if your government revokes a SSN which is your de facto "personal identification number" today? Can you still rent/buy a home? Can you have a job?

iamnothere 1mo ago
Some US citizens don’t even have SSNs, believe it or not. The Amish get by just fine.
- embedding-shape 1mo ago
  Is it generally considered that The Amish "participates in society"? I thought the whole point for them was that they're "outside of modern society", to some degree at least.
  - iamnothere 1mo ago
    They participate in their own society, which allows them to survive in their own way. In other countries, national IDs have often been followed by mandatory registration requirements for renting or owning property, employment, etc. At present there are ways to get around using ID for many things, and it should stay that way.
nobodyandproud 1mo ago
Before my time, but I believe SSN was and probably still is controversial in my circle. I definitely recall rumblings about it even 30 years ago. But while cash is printed (physical currency): Not having an SSN becomes a major impediment but not impossible to make transactions and survive. Our migrant workers—who are basically carrying white collar workers like me—are proof of this.
- embedding-shape 1mo ago
  Isn't all of those cases then also proof that if the SSN was a government ID instead, all of those things would have been the same? The ID wouldn't "impossible to make transactions and survive", just an impediment, just like not having a SSN is today. Point is, the US already basically have a de facto "ID card", they just don't call it as such (yet?), so claiming somehow correctly labeling this thing would make things worse or more difficult, doesn't make much sense.
  - dghlsakjg 1mo ago
    You can't really identify someone by their SSN. My card is literally just a piece of cardstock paper with a name and number, and no one has ever asked to see it. There is no photo. There is no security.
    - embedding-shape 1mo ago
      Say you go to your local bank today and ask to sign up for a new bank account, what sort of documents do they ask for? Passport? Drivers license?
      - dghlsakjg 1mo ago
        Government issued id with a photo is typically the requirement depending on the bank and their KYC. That can be a military id, passport, NEXUS card, DL, state ID.

iamnothere 1mo ago

Exactly. You do not want to hand the US government the ability to “turn off” someone’s daily life at the press of a button. Things are already bad enough as it is, but at least it’s still possible to get by even if the system takes a dislike to you.

embedding-shape 1mo ago
> Exactly. You do not want to hand the US government the ability to “turn off” someone’s daily life at the press of a button. If you're within the borders of the US, this ability already exists, they have a monopoly on violence in the country, something the government is very eager to demonstrate this year.
- iamnothere 1mo ago
  There’s a lot of room between violence and financial isolation. The government has shown multiple times that it is willing to go after otherwise law-abiding citizens who take up disfavored careers, whether it’s gun dealers and payday lenders in Operation Choke Point, cannabis dispensaries in states where it was legal, or online cam girls. In all of these cases, going to cash or using alternatives to the banking system was possible and even necessary for them to survive.
  - embedding-shape 1mo ago
    And none of those examples you use, involve SSNs, these are all 100% paperless people/companies? Makes me wonder how they got bank accounts in the first place if they're so disconnected from society.
    - iamnothere 1mo ago
      The individuals had SSNs, but did not have a hypothetical national ID connected to systems that could have been used to fully isolate them. As long as backchannels exist in the system to accommodate those without SSNs/DLs, it is possible to get by even if the system tries to cut you off.

Tangurena2 1mo ago

> The fear of a national ID isn’t just about tracking and privacy, but that an individual cannot participate in society or survive if the government decides to revoke the id. This is because the US made a critical flaw by tying the authentication and authorization tokens into one single token - your driving license/ID. They should be separate things. Your authentication token (who are you?) should have your picture and be forgery resistant. Your authorization token (what can you do?) should be a piece of plastic with zero pictures (like your insurance card). Did you get stopped for DUI? The officer takes your authorization token, instead, the officer confiscates both tokens and hands you a paper receipt. The FAA does it the smart way, your authorization token (pilot's license) has no photo. You do something stupid, the ATC tells you to "call this number" and if it is really badly stupid, then the local FAA person confiscates your authorization token.