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Ah, I see your point and I think maybe there is a misunderstanding. To me, intelligent design is part of my religion. So when people call intelligent design a f

by aarondf 14y ago

Ah, I see your point and I think maybe there is a misunderstanding. To me, intelligent design is part of my religion. So when people call intelligent design a fraud, but invite me to carry on believing my religion, I see a sort of disconnect. Maybe it shouldn't be espoused as science per se, but I think calling it a fraud is equivalent to my calling your belief system a fraud. Does that make sense or am I sounding ridiculous?

diego_moita 14y ago
Well, I see it a lot different. First let me suggest that there might not be a contradiction between Christianity and Evolution, since some Christian denominations are absolutely comfortable with it (e.g. Anglicans, Lutherans and Catholics). Although I have no religion (agnostic, as some call) my wife is Catholic and has no problem in giving Darwin biographies to my children. Second, you can believe in Creationism and doubt science if it pleases you. What you can't do is to pretend that Creationism is science, as I.D. and the Discovery Institute do. It is this last bit what I call a fraud.
- aarondf 14y ago
  I totally get that you see it different, and I respect it. There are lots of things that people claiming to be Christians disagree about. I say "claiming" because it is impossible to say that a single group of people are believers, regardless of what group that is (Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, Catholic). So I personally do not believe evolution, based on my reading of the first book of the Bible, but some people claiming Christianity do. Maybe I'm the one that is wrong! I'm ok with that, because in the end my believing creation || evolution isn't what my salvation hinges on. We have certain beliefs that we have to hold with open hands, and some that are closed. That Jesus paid the price for my sins, that is a closed-hand, absolute for me. Creation vs Evolution, I care wayyyy less about. I believe creation, you (presumably) believe evolution. Awesome, let's chat about it. As far as the creation-is-science point, I believe it to be so only because I believe it to be true, so it's kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy. I understand that you believe differently, and you are 100% welcome to call creation-is-science a fraud. I misunderstood you to be saying "creation is a fraud, practice your religion freely!" which I didn't understand. I understand much better now.
  - goostavos 14y ago
    In addition to the first book of the Bible, I would suggest checking out the first chapter of Why Evolution is True. I found it to be an extremely elightening introduction to evolution. It hit that sweet spot of having just enough technical information while still being a "page turner." I ended up reading the thing in two sittings. At the very least, it would give you a more credible line of argument by explaining why you disagree with the theory of evolution, rather than citing a very old, often incorrect book.
  - aarondf 14y ago
    Thanks for the recc goostavos, I (truly) will check it out. Thanks also for being amiable.
- illuminate 14y ago
  "First let me suggest that there might not be a contradiction between Christianity and Evolution" It's not a suggestion, it's a fact!
  - aarondf 14y ago
    I understand that to be your opinion. I (and most Christians) however, have a different opinion: that there absolutely is a contradiction. I wouldn't call it a fact.
    - illuminate 14y ago
      It's a fact that one can believe in evolution and a Christian. whether you understand the definition of "Intelligent Design" as used by Creationists and the idea of God guiding the hand of evolution is irrelevant to that fact. Most Christians are not Creationists, believing in God's creation is not the same thing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedge_strategy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedge_strategy
    - tzs 14y ago
      Catholics believe that there is no contradiction between Christianity ans evolution, and since Catholics make up more tha 50% of Christians, so your claim that most Christians see a contradiction is incorrect.
      - illuminate 14y ago
        Besides that literalists/fundamentalists do not comprise the majority of Protestants either.
illuminate 14y ago
"To me, intelligent design is part of my religion" Not the way they use it. Apparently you don't understand what "intelligent design" is. Christians who believe God guided our development but are rational beings are evolutionary biologists, not "creationists" or "intelligent design believers".
- aarondf 14y ago
  See my comment to your other comment for a response re: the definition of ID. I understand that you believe me to be irrational. I do not believe that God guided our development at all. I believe God created all of creation ex nihilo, from nothing. I understand that you believe differently, I respect that. I just ask that you do the same for me.
  - illuminate 14y ago
    "I believe God created all of creation ex nihilo, from nothing. ... I understand that you believe differently, I respect that. I just ask that you do the same for me." I'm asking that you do a little more research before you conflate Creationism with the idea that God created life. Creationism is a specific term with specific meaning, one that you are misusing.
jamesbritt 14y ago
Maybe it shouldn't be espoused as science per se, but I think calling it a fraud is equivalent to my calling your belief system a fraud. Smart people can believe foolish things. Smart people can believe things that are wrong. Simply believing something that is foolish doesn't make someone a fool. If you were believing something that was false, or was a fraud, would you not want someone to tell you? If you have sufficient proof for what you believe, and it withstands critical examination, does it matter if others consider it foolish or a fraud? Criticism of beliefs is not the same as criticism of believers.

by aarondf 14y ago

diego_moita 14y ago

Well, I see it a lot different. First let me suggest that there might not be a contradiction between Christianity and Evolution, since some Christian denominations are absolutely comfortable with it (e.g. Anglicans, Lutherans and Catholics). Although I have no religion (agnostic, as some call) my wife is Catholic and has no problem in giving Darwin biographies to my children. Second, you can believe in Creationism and doubt science if it pleases you. What you can't do is to pretend that Creationism is science, as I.D. and the Discovery Institute do. It is this last bit what I call a fraud.

aarondf 14y ago
I totally get that you see it different, and I respect it. There are lots of things that people claiming to be Christians disagree about. I say "claiming" because it is impossible to say that a single group of people are believers, regardless of what group that is (Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, Catholic). So I personally do not believe evolution, based on my reading of the first book of the Bible, but some people claiming Christianity do. Maybe I'm the one that is wrong! I'm ok with that, because in the end my believing creation || evolution isn't what my salvation hinges on. We have certain beliefs that we have to hold with open hands, and some that are closed. That Jesus paid the price for my sins, that is a closed-hand, absolute for me. Creation vs Evolution, I care wayyyy less about. I believe creation, you (presumably) believe evolution. Awesome, let's chat about it. As far as the creation-is-science point, I believe it to be so only because I believe it to be true, so it's kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy. I understand that you believe differently, and you are 100% welcome to call creation-is-science a fraud. I misunderstood you to be saying "creation is a fraud, practice your religion freely!" which I didn't understand. I understand much better now.
- goostavos 14y ago
  In addition to the first book of the Bible, I would suggest checking out the first chapter of Why Evolution is True. I found it to be an extremely elightening introduction to evolution. It hit that sweet spot of having just enough technical information while still being a "page turner." I ended up reading the thing in two sittings. At the very least, it would give you a more credible line of argument by explaining why you disagree with the theory of evolution, rather than citing a very old, often incorrect book.
- aarondf 14y ago
  Thanks for the recc goostavos, I (truly) will check it out. Thanks also for being amiable.
illuminate 14y ago
"First let me suggest that there might not be a contradiction between Christianity and Evolution" It's not a suggestion, it's a fact!
- aarondf 14y ago
  I understand that to be your opinion. I (and most Christians) however, have a different opinion: that there absolutely is a contradiction. I wouldn't call it a fact.
  - illuminate 14y ago
    It's a fact that one can believe in evolution and a Christian. whether you understand the definition of "Intelligent Design" as used by Creationists and the idea of God guiding the hand of evolution is irrelevant to that fact. Most Christians are not Creationists, believing in God's creation is not the same thing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedge_strategy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedge_strategy
  - tzs 14y ago
    Catholics believe that there is no contradiction between Christianity ans evolution, and since Catholics make up more tha 50% of Christians, so your claim that most Christians see a contradiction is incorrect.
    - illuminate 14y ago
      Besides that literalists/fundamentalists do not comprise the majority of Protestants either.

illuminate 14y ago

"To me, intelligent design is part of my religion" Not the way they use it. Apparently you don't understand what "intelligent design" is. Christians who believe God guided our development but are rational beings are evolutionary biologists, not "creationists" or "intelligent design believers".

aarondf 14y ago
See my comment to your other comment for a response re: the definition of ID. I understand that you believe me to be irrational. I do not believe that God guided our development at all. I believe God created all of creation ex nihilo, from nothing. I understand that you believe differently, I respect that. I just ask that you do the same for me.
- illuminate 14y ago
  "I believe God created all of creation ex nihilo, from nothing. ... I understand that you believe differently, I respect that. I just ask that you do the same for me." I'm asking that you do a little more research before you conflate Creationism with the idea that God created life. Creationism is a specific term with specific meaning, one that you are misusing.

jamesbritt 14y ago

Maybe it shouldn't be espoused as science per se, but I think calling it a fraud is equivalent to my calling your belief system a fraud. Smart people can believe foolish things. Smart people can believe things that are wrong. Simply believing something that is foolish doesn't make someone a fool. If you were believing something that was false, or was a fraud, would you not want someone to tell you? If you have sufficient proof for what you believe, and it withstands critical examination, does it matter if others consider it foolish or a fraud? Criticism of beliefs is not the same as criticism of believers.