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"As a think tank focused on intelligent design, the Discovery Institute presumably has no need for physical laboratories—its research is mostly imagination-base

by aarondf 14y ago

"As a think tank focused on intelligent design, the Discovery Institute presumably has no need for physical laboratories—its research is mostly imagination-based." This sentence turned me off tremendously. I understand that the writer doesn't believe in intelligent design, but that's quite a jab at something that these people are dedicating much of their working lives to. I know that (we) Christians are often accused of being closed-minded and myopic, which is something that I am truly saddened about in modern Christianity, but it's not becoming of either side! Disclaimer: Bible-believing Christian, but still a rational thinker ;)

salgernon 14y ago
Do you believe that creationism or Intelligent design should be given equal time in public education?
- aarondf 14y ago
  No, I don't. (Unfortunately.) I think too many Christian parents leave it up to other people (Sunday school teachers, youth group leaders, private school teachers, etc etc) to teach their children about their (our) beliefs. Schools teach evolution, BFD. I don't believe evolution, but I'm not angry schools teach it. If you want your kids to know about the Bible's creation story, stop complaining about public schools and teach them yourself!
pc86 14y ago
If you're going to spout off nonsense like the folks at the Discovery Institute, I feel little remorse when you are publicly ridiculed. Edit: In my haste I think my reply may have been a little tangential. Intelligent Design is absolutely ridiculous. It carries no basis in scientific theory or observation. It is at best bad science and thinly veiled political and religious dogmatism, and at best a celebration of ignorance. If you want to believe the Earth is flat, or sitting on the shell of a turtle, or 6,000 years old, go for it. You can believe whatever you want. But when you start saying that publicly funded science classrooms should be teaching that drivel, you deserve every ounce of the hate, ridicule and ostracism that is coming your way.
- aarondf 14y ago
  To be fair, I know nothing about the DI. I just read the article and thought that the first sentence was a little harsh. Given their use of half-baked greenscreening, I'm sure they earned it.
- aarondf 14y ago
  re: edit. I don't know if anyone "deserve[s] every ounce of the hate [....] that is coming [their] way." I disagree with people, people disagree with me. I'm not sure when we started handing out hate so freely.
  - pc86 14y ago
    Hate is an intentionally strong word; I don't actually "hate" people that believe in ID. That being said, trying to get ID and other religiously-motivated nonsense into schools is a direct threat to everything those schools stand for. Edit: type fix.
    - aarondf 14y ago
      Understood. See my comment below re: public schools. There are schools where creationism is taught, you know what they're called? Private schools! Send your kids there if you don't want them to hear about evolution, simple as that. tl;dr: I agree
diego_moita 14y ago
Sorry, I don't understand your point. Do you mean we should show respect and consideration for a fraud just because "people are dedicating much of their working lives to"? I am not worried about your religion, enjoy it as it pleases you. But intelligent design is not science. This has been established even by courts. My problem is when those liars keep on smuggling superstitions into science.
- aarondf 14y ago
  Ah, I see your point and I think maybe there is a misunderstanding. To me, intelligent design is part of my religion. So when people call intelligent design a fraud, but invite me to carry on believing my religion, I see a sort of disconnect. Maybe it shouldn't be espoused as science per se, but I think calling it a fraud is equivalent to my calling your belief system a fraud. Does that make sense or am I sounding ridiculous?
  - diego_moita 14y ago
    Well, I see it a lot different. First let me suggest that there might not be a contradiction between Christianity and Evolution, since some Christian denominations are absolutely comfortable with it (e.g. Anglicans, Lutherans and Catholics). Although I have no religion (agnostic, as some call) my wife is Catholic and has no problem in giving Darwin biographies to my children. Second, you can believe in Creationism and doubt science if it pleases you. What you can't do is to pretend that Creationism is science, as I.D. and the Discovery Institute do. It is this last bit what I call a fraud.
    - aarondf 14y ago
      I totally get that you see it different, and I respect it. There are lots of things that people claiming to be Christians disagree about. I say "claiming" because it is impossible to say that a single group of people are believers, regardless of what group that is (Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, Catholic). So I personally do not believe evolution, based on my reading of the first book of the Bible, but some people claiming Christianity do. Maybe I'm the one that is wrong! I'm ok with that, because in the end my believing creation || evolution isn't what my salvation hinges on. We have certain beliefs that we have to hold with open hands, and some that are closed. That Jesus paid the price for my sins, that is a closed-hand, absolute for me. Creation vs Evolution, I care wayyyy less about. I believe creation, you (presumably) believe evolution. Awesome, let's chat about it. As far as the creation-is-science point, I believe it to be so only because I believe it to be true, so it's kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy. I understand that you believe differently, and you are 100% welcome to call creation-is-science a fraud. I misunderstood you to be saying "creation is a fraud, practice your religion freely!" which I didn't understand. I understand much better now.
illuminate 14y ago
"that's quite a jab at something that these people are dedicating much of their working lives to" A deserved one, these people want all the respect physical scientists are granted without a single bit of science. It's 100% god of the gaps arguments. "Disclaimer: Bible-believing Christian, but still a rational thinker" Apparently not, if you claim to be aware of what ID is and make this defense against lazy apologism.
- aarondf 14y ago
  "Apparently not, if you claim to be aware of what ID is and make this defense against lazy apologism." No need to attack me personally. ID is: The theory that life, or the universe, cannot have arisen by chance and was designed and created by some intelligent entity[1]. That's what I understood it to be, and that is what I believe. If I've given the impression that I believe it to be something else, I apologize for that. [1]https://www.google.com/search?q=define+intelligent+design&oq=define+intelligent+design&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 https://www.google.com/search?q=define+intelligent+design&#3...
  - illuminate 14y ago
    Christian evolutionary biologists (physicists, cosmologists, etc.) may believe in God creating the world, but they then try to explain HOW he did so. They are neither Creationists nor ID believers. There is no need to reduce the scope of Christian belief and practice for ideological purposes.

by aarondf 14y ago

salgernon 14y ago

Do you believe that creationism or Intelligent design should be given equal time in public education?

aarondf 14y ago
No, I don't. (Unfortunately.) I think too many Christian parents leave it up to other people (Sunday school teachers, youth group leaders, private school teachers, etc etc) to teach their children about their (our) beliefs. Schools teach evolution, BFD. I don't believe evolution, but I'm not angry schools teach it. If you want your kids to know about the Bible's creation story, stop complaining about public schools and teach them yourself!

pc86 14y ago

If you're going to spout off nonsense like the folks at the Discovery Institute, I feel little remorse when you are publicly ridiculed. Edit: In my haste I think my reply may have been a little tangential. Intelligent Design is absolutely ridiculous. It carries no basis in scientific theory or observation. It is at best bad science and thinly veiled political and religious dogmatism, and at best a celebration of ignorance. If you want to believe the Earth is flat, or sitting on the shell of a turtle, or 6,000 years old, go for it. You can believe whatever you want. But when you start saying that publicly funded science classrooms should be teaching that drivel, you deserve every ounce of the hate, ridicule and ostracism that is coming your way.

aarondf 14y ago
To be fair, I know nothing about the DI. I just read the article and thought that the first sentence was a little harsh. Given their use of half-baked greenscreening, I'm sure they earned it.
aarondf 14y ago
re: edit. I don't know if anyone "deserve[s] every ounce of the hate [....] that is coming [their] way." I disagree with people, people disagree with me. I'm not sure when we started handing out hate so freely.
- pc86 14y ago
  Hate is an intentionally strong word; I don't actually "hate" people that believe in ID. That being said, trying to get ID and other religiously-motivated nonsense into schools is a direct threat to everything those schools stand for. Edit: type fix.
  - aarondf 14y ago
    Understood. See my comment below re: public schools. There are schools where creationism is taught, you know what they're called? Private schools! Send your kids there if you don't want them to hear about evolution, simple as that. tl;dr: I agree

diego_moita 14y ago

Sorry, I don't understand your point. Do you mean we should show respect and consideration for a fraud just because "people are dedicating much of their working lives to"? I am not worried about your religion, enjoy it as it pleases you. But intelligent design is not science. This has been established even by courts. My problem is when those liars keep on smuggling superstitions into science.

aarondf 14y ago
Ah, I see your point and I think maybe there is a misunderstanding. To me, intelligent design is part of my religion. So when people call intelligent design a fraud, but invite me to carry on believing my religion, I see a sort of disconnect. Maybe it shouldn't be espoused as science per se, but I think calling it a fraud is equivalent to my calling your belief system a fraud. Does that make sense or am I sounding ridiculous?
- diego_moita 14y ago
  Well, I see it a lot different. First let me suggest that there might not be a contradiction between Christianity and Evolution, since some Christian denominations are absolutely comfortable with it (e.g. Anglicans, Lutherans and Catholics). Although I have no religion (agnostic, as some call) my wife is Catholic and has no problem in giving Darwin biographies to my children. Second, you can believe in Creationism and doubt science if it pleases you. What you can't do is to pretend that Creationism is science, as I.D. and the Discovery Institute do. It is this last bit what I call a fraud.
  - aarondf 14y ago
    I totally get that you see it different, and I respect it. There are lots of things that people claiming to be Christians disagree about. I say "claiming" because it is impossible to say that a single group of people are believers, regardless of what group that is (Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, Catholic). So I personally do not believe evolution, based on my reading of the first book of the Bible, but some people claiming Christianity do. Maybe I'm the one that is wrong! I'm ok with that, because in the end my believing creation || evolution isn't what my salvation hinges on. We have certain beliefs that we have to hold with open hands, and some that are closed. That Jesus paid the price for my sins, that is a closed-hand, absolute for me. Creation vs Evolution, I care wayyyy less about. I believe creation, you (presumably) believe evolution. Awesome, let's chat about it. As far as the creation-is-science point, I believe it to be so only because I believe it to be true, so it's kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy. I understand that you believe differently, and you are 100% welcome to call creation-is-science a fraud. I misunderstood you to be saying "creation is a fraud, practice your religion freely!" which I didn't understand. I understand much better now.

illuminate 14y ago

"that's quite a jab at something that these people are dedicating much of their working lives to" A deserved one, these people want all the respect physical scientists are granted without a single bit of science. It's 100% god of the gaps arguments. "Disclaimer: Bible-believing Christian, but still a rational thinker" Apparently not, if you claim to be aware of what ID is and make this defense against lazy apologism.

aarondf 14y ago
"Apparently not, if you claim to be aware of what ID is and make this defense against lazy apologism." No need to attack me personally. ID is: The theory that life, or the universe, cannot have arisen by chance and was designed and created by some intelligent entity[1]. That's what I understood it to be, and that is what I believe. If I've given the impression that I believe it to be something else, I apologize for that. [1]https://www.google.com/search?q=define+intelligent+design&oq=define+intelligent+design&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 https://www.google.com/search?q=define+intelligent+design&#3...
- illuminate 14y ago
  Christian evolutionary biologists (physicists, cosmologists, etc.) may believe in God creating the world, but they then try to explain HOW he did so. They are neither Creationists nor ID believers. There is no need to reduce the scope of Christian belief and practice for ideological purposes.