3 ms·

has any browser ever made that work? Opera has to be the most popular by a mile and even they couldn't keep that business model going

dest 1mo ago
Not in my knowledge. It would be hard to have the same amount of funding as they have now from Google.
- lexicality 1mo ago
  especially when you pay your executives 7 figure salaries
  - brewdad 1mo ago
    That’s what a good executive costs these days. You could try to hire a CEO for $100,000/yr with the expected quality of applicants.
    - lexicality 1mo ago
      > That’s what a good executive costs these days. maybe they should go get some then
    - account42 1mo ago
      Good executives that have achieved an ever shrinking market share while continuing to piss of enthusiast users? At this point they could pay someone with zero experience minimum wage and would probably do no worse. Have you considered that a "good executive" (i.e. someone good at maximizing shareholder values and his own compensation) is the last person Firefox needs?
johanyc 1mo ago
People just expect browsers to be free. And there's no way that can be more than Google money.
- schubidubiduba 1mo ago
  That's because browsers should be free. They are infrastructure, just like bridges. And nobody wants a bridge troll sitting on the single bridge crossing the internet river, demanding money from everyone.
  - ferngodfather 1mo ago
    I mean, bridge tolls are absolutely a thing.
    - edoceo 1mo ago
      My area has roads w/o bridges that have a toll.
      - rightnutwingjob 1mo ago
        If things keep going as they are, my area will soon have a bridge, several bridges, and no roads. But it will still have tolls.
  - shric 1mo ago
    Bridges are not free
    - Lio 1mo ago
      No but they are available at very reasonable prices in prime locations. If anyone's interested I have a very pretty one listed in Brooklyn. See my Google search ad for details. :P
    - account42 1mo ago
      They are also not funded with blood money.
  - pibaker 1mo ago
    You pay for bridges with tax. Tax funded browser sounds good in theory, but I don't trust the people managing my tax money to run a tech project like Firefox. Most likely it gets handed to the lowest private sector bidder, with the stipulation that any privacy preserving — sorry, I meant criminal hiding — features be removed.
al_borland 1mo ago
Orion (by Kagi) is still new, but seems to be trying.
- shakow 1mo ago
  Orion is webkit-based though, not a whole independent browser like FFox.
  - plausibility 1mo ago
    To be fair, Firefox on iOS is also WebKit based thanks to Apples’s rules. Much of a muchness in this aspect.
    - shakow 1mo ago
      I'm not criticizing Orion for that; I actually enjoy it quite a lot (and will do even more when they will have ironed out all the UI bugs). Also I'm eager to see how it will behave on Linux when they will have finished their port; I hope we will finally have a really low-energy consumption browser then.
yubblegum 1mo ago
What exactly is the problem? I understand a browser is a complex program but is the claim it is impossible to build a browser without continual dependence on advertising toxic dollars?
- makeitdouble 1mo ago
  > a browser is a complex program A browser in the class of Firefox or Chrome is for all intents and purposes a full OS constantly exposed to the world. I understand open source OS development to be sustainable thanks to the the effort put into the server farms. That doesn't work for client side software, with the additional hurdle of needing to be better than the ad funded browser.
  - teekert 1mo ago
    My Linux kernel is not riddled with ads? Maybe companies should see browsers more as a the Linux kernel, a precompetitive commodity layer on top of which we deliver/extract value to/from users.
    - palata 1mo ago
      > My Linux kernel is not riddled with ads? And Firefox is not riddled with ads. The websites it loads are. If you run a program that shows ads on your Linux distro, the Linux kernel won't block them, will it?
      - yubblegum 1mo ago
        Does your hypothetical kernel make it easy or difficult for you to install add-ons that block ads? Does the organization that build it have a conflict of interest regarding advertisting/surveillance interests such as Google/Meta/...?
        palata 1mo ago
        Not sure what your point is. My comparison was not made to be stretched infinitely. Next question may be "does your kernel render web pages?", but I don't see where it is going. But to give an answer: if you wanted to bake an ad-blocker in the Linux kernel that would prevent programs from showing ads in a transparent way (the ads just don't show and the programs still work and look fine), I think it would not be trivial at all. But I don't see the point of going down that discussion.

dest 1mo ago

Not in my knowledge. It would be hard to have the same amount of funding as they have now from Google.

lexicality 1mo ago
especially when you pay your executives 7 figure salaries
- brewdad 1mo ago
  That’s what a good executive costs these days. You could try to hire a CEO for $100,000/yr with the expected quality of applicants.
  - lexicality 1mo ago
    > That’s what a good executive costs these days. maybe they should go get some then
  - account42 1mo ago
    Good executives that have achieved an ever shrinking market share while continuing to piss of enthusiast users? At this point they could pay someone with zero experience minimum wage and would probably do no worse. Have you considered that a "good executive" (i.e. someone good at maximizing shareholder values and his own compensation) is the last person Firefox needs?

johanyc 1mo ago

People just expect browsers to be free. And there's no way that can be more than Google money.

schubidubiduba 1mo ago
That's because browsers should be free. They are infrastructure, just like bridges. And nobody wants a bridge troll sitting on the single bridge crossing the internet river, demanding money from everyone.
- ferngodfather 1mo ago
  I mean, bridge tolls are absolutely a thing.
  - edoceo 1mo ago
    My area has roads w/o bridges that have a toll.
    - rightnutwingjob 1mo ago
      If things keep going as they are, my area will soon have a bridge, several bridges, and no roads. But it will still have tolls.
- shric 1mo ago
  Bridges are not free
  - Lio 1mo ago
    No but they are available at very reasonable prices in prime locations. If anyone's interested I have a very pretty one listed in Brooklyn. See my Google search ad for details. :P
  - account42 1mo ago
    They are also not funded with blood money.
- pibaker 1mo ago
  You pay for bridges with tax. Tax funded browser sounds good in theory, but I don't trust the people managing my tax money to run a tech project like Firefox. Most likely it gets handed to the lowest private sector bidder, with the stipulation that any privacy preserving — sorry, I meant criminal hiding — features be removed.

al_borland 1mo ago

Orion (by Kagi) is still new, but seems to be trying.

shakow 1mo ago
Orion is webkit-based though, not a whole independent browser like FFox.
- plausibility 1mo ago
  To be fair, Firefox on iOS is also WebKit based thanks to Apples’s rules. Much of a muchness in this aspect.
  - shakow 1mo ago
    I'm not criticizing Orion for that; I actually enjoy it quite a lot (and will do even more when they will have ironed out all the UI bugs). Also I'm eager to see how it will behave on Linux when they will have finished their port; I hope we will finally have a really low-energy consumption browser then.

yubblegum 1mo ago

What exactly is the problem? I understand a browser is a complex program but is the claim it is impossible to build a browser without continual dependence on advertising toxic dollars?

makeitdouble 1mo ago
> a browser is a complex program A browser in the class of Firefox or Chrome is for all intents and purposes a full OS constantly exposed to the world. I understand open source OS development to be sustainable thanks to the the effort put into the server farms. That doesn't work for client side software, with the additional hurdle of needing to be better than the ad funded browser.
- teekert 1mo ago
  My Linux kernel is not riddled with ads? Maybe companies should see browsers more as a the Linux kernel, a precompetitive commodity layer on top of which we deliver/extract value to/from users.
  - palata 1mo ago
    > My Linux kernel is not riddled with ads? And Firefox is not riddled with ads. The websites it loads are. If you run a program that shows ads on your Linux distro, the Linux kernel won't block them, will it?
    - yubblegum 1mo ago
      Does your hypothetical kernel make it easy or difficult for you to install add-ons that block ads? Does the organization that build it have a conflict of interest regarding advertisting/surveillance interests such as Google/Meta/...?
      - palata 1mo ago
        Not sure what your point is. My comparison was not made to be stretched infinitely. Next question may be "does your kernel render web pages?", but I don't see where it is going. But to give an answer: if you wanted to bake an ad-blocker in the Linux kernel that would prevent programs from showing ads in a transparent way (the ads just don't show and the programs still work and look fine), I think it would not be trivial at all. But I don't see the point of going down that discussion.