8 ms·

I think part of the reason the US doesn't feel like the US anymore is that ownership of properties is no longer Bob who dreamed of some day opening a Pizza shop

I think part of the reason the US doesn't feel like the US anymore is that ownership of properties is no longer Bob who dreamed of some day opening a Pizza shop on Main st. It's all corporate now, all the way down.

cogman10 1mo ago
Yup. Consolidation of the markets is ultimately what's destroyed small businesses. It's currently working on the likes of dentists and vets. The US has devolved to the point where only someone with a large amount of wealth can start and run a business. You can't open up a small hardware shop anymore because no bank will give that loan and no supplier will give you the same wholesale prices they give to the likes of Home Depot or Lowes or heck even Walmart. At every level in the supply distribution system we've seen consolidation and ultimately locking out of competition. For example, here's why independent pharmacists have been going out of business [1]. We need new Theodore Roosevelt and Franklin Roosevelt anti-trust breakups to make capitalism work again. Capitalism can't work without a diverse competitive market. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmZtBW54GNI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmZtBW54GNI
- MisterTea 1mo ago
  > We need new Theodore Roosevelt and Franklin Roosevelt anti-trust breakups to make capitalism work again. Too bad the oligarchs slowly whittled away the government immune system until it was weak enough to infect last election cycle and is busy destroying what little is left. America seems to be headed into a feudal dark age. Once the government is toothless only the people can fix it with mass protest and/or violence.
  - cogman10 1mo ago
    There were oligarchs with massive amounts of power in the days of the Roosevelts. Rockefeller, Carnegie, J.P. Morgan, Vanderbilt. These were all huge oligarchs that definitely fought to try and keep America in a feudal dark age. Things seem bleak, but we've been here before and came out of it better.
    - deleted 1mo ago
      [deleted]
- rayiner 1mo ago
  I agree with your point, but there's a fundamental problem you need to consider. The problem is that the Mom & Pops are inefficient and the giants are efficient. Amazon exemplifies the consolidation problem you're talking about. But it has a favorability rating of 78%, ahead of the U.S. military, the police, and the CDC: https://harvardharrispoll.com/assets/uploads/2023/05/HHP_May2023_KeyResults.pdf https://harvardharrispoll.com/assets/uploads/2023/05/HHP_May... (p. 15). Are the Mom & Pops going to deliver an order you place at 4 pm on your phone by 10 am the next morning? Because if not the antitrust measures you suggest are going to be deeply unpopular among a middle class that's used to having a stream of Amazon packages being delivered every day.
  - cogman10 1mo ago
    > The problem is that the Mom & Pops are inefficient and the giants are efficient. There are diminishing returns to efficiency. Grocery stores, for example, are just as efficient as Amazon is even though many of them are a fraction of the size. Something like a gas station will be just as efficient whether it's ran by a mom and pop or whether it's ran by Shell. > Are the Mom & Pops going to deliver an order you place at 4 pm on your phone by 10 am the next morning? Often yes, if it's in inventory. If it's not you'll have to wait longer than you would with amazon. In fact, one of the benefits of mom and pop shops is that they can generally get things delivered to you same day because they live in the same city as you do. Much like you get same day delivery from a restaurant even though they are often mom and pop shops. But to my point above, you don't need a company the size of amazon to get next day delivery. Amazon could be broken up into several smaller (but still big) companies and it'd have close to exactly the same efficiency. It would also result in lower prices because now Amazon would have actual competition.
  - AngryData 1mo ago
    I think that largely depends on what you define as "efficient". I see nothing efficient about funneling profit margins to a larger single entity that may not live in the same state, or even the same country, versus going into local hands who spend most of their money locally. Oh sure the large corporate model of stores may have a bigger pile of capital in their accounting book to spend versus the same grouping of small independent stores even if they were added together, but nowhere in the accounting book is there any mention of money leaving local economies and ultimately making it poorer and down the line reducing the value of the community which devalues the stores too. Also a mom and pop store is far more likely to be able to and willing to break from the standard mold and let you call at 4 PM and then come pick something up at 7 PM after the store would normally be closed. That might also seem "inefficient" because now some employee is sitting around an extra two hours just to serve one customer. But what about the efficiency on the customer's side who may gain even greater value by having that thing ready to go at 5 am the next day? Very few people are accounting for all the "efficiencies" that are not represented by capital holding in somebody's accounting book.
- ChiperSoft 1mo ago
  The sheer cost of storefront space is also a factor. Retail rents are even more ludicrous than apartments.
sroussey 1mo ago
Actually, 7-11 is a shrewd negotiator and will not invest anything over fixing something broken, and the landlord is not in charge here as these are all triple net. So it doesn’t matter who owns the land. But, yes, the corp running that business is thousands of miles away. But the real issue here a that people stop at a 7-Eleven where if the same building in same condition said Bobs Convenience Store, they would not. We learned that decades ago.
- greedo 1mo ago
  I don't think there's anything to back up your last sentence. In my small city, there's at least four convenience store chains, and many of them use the owner's name as part of the street (advertised) name. There's also a lot of small convenience stores that are single owner, many serving immigrant communities.
  - sroussey 1mo ago
    It’s a reference as to why people go to McDonald’s even though a local one off burger place is very likely better — expectations. Particularly when traveling outside your known regular places. It does not mean that McDonald’s replaced all restaurants, nor that they are better, but it does mean that when you go to one you know exactly what you are going to get vs the uncertainty of the unknown competitor. It’s why suburbia all looks the same. And for that matter, it’s happening in cities that pride themselves on not having things like McDonald’s. There is cool kids Blue Bottle coffee in SF, and LA, etc. Whole Foods used to be only in hip places and now it anywhere trying to be hip (don’t worry, Erehwon is here to soak up hipsters cash).
jjav 1mo ago
> I think part of the reason the US doesn't feel like the US anymore I guess we can debate if that isn't what the US is about, but regardless, it is depressing. Traveling around the US, the most notable thing is how everything is the same. It is so horrible. No matter where you go, it's the same chain stores, often in the same arrangement and layout. If you get dropped blindly in most towns in the US, there is no way to tell any difference, it's all cookie cutter identical. Occasionally you run into town that have character and a unique style. Those are the treasures of the US. But I'm sure soon enough those will also be paved over with the same fast foods and chain stores to comply with being identical.

cogman10 1mo ago

Yup. Consolidation of the markets is ultimately what's destroyed small businesses. It's currently working on the likes of dentists and vets. The US has devolved to the point where only someone with a large amount of wealth can start and run a business. You can't open up a small hardware shop anymore because no bank will give that loan and no supplier will give you the same wholesale prices they give to the likes of Home Depot or Lowes or heck even Walmart. At every level in the supply distribution system we've seen consolidation and ultimately locking out of competition. For example, here's why independent pharmacists have been going out of business [1]. We need new Theodore Roosevelt and Franklin Roosevelt anti-trust breakups to make capitalism work again. Capitalism can't work without a diverse competitive market. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmZtBW54GNI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmZtBW54GNI

MisterTea 1mo ago
> We need new Theodore Roosevelt and Franklin Roosevelt anti-trust breakups to make capitalism work again. Too bad the oligarchs slowly whittled away the government immune system until it was weak enough to infect last election cycle and is busy destroying what little is left. America seems to be headed into a feudal dark age. Once the government is toothless only the people can fix it with mass protest and/or violence.
- cogman10 1mo ago
  There were oligarchs with massive amounts of power in the days of the Roosevelts. Rockefeller, Carnegie, J.P. Morgan, Vanderbilt. These were all huge oligarchs that definitely fought to try and keep America in a feudal dark age. Things seem bleak, but we've been here before and came out of it better.
  - deleted 1mo ago
    [deleted]
rayiner 1mo ago
I agree with your point, but there's a fundamental problem you need to consider. The problem is that the Mom & Pops are inefficient and the giants are efficient. Amazon exemplifies the consolidation problem you're talking about. But it has a favorability rating of 78%, ahead of the U.S. military, the police, and the CDC: https://harvardharrispoll.com/assets/uploads/2023/05/HHP_May2023_KeyResults.pdf https://harvardharrispoll.com/assets/uploads/2023/05/HHP_May... (p. 15). Are the Mom & Pops going to deliver an order you place at 4 pm on your phone by 10 am the next morning? Because if not the antitrust measures you suggest are going to be deeply unpopular among a middle class that's used to having a stream of Amazon packages being delivered every day.
- cogman10 1mo ago
  > The problem is that the Mom & Pops are inefficient and the giants are efficient. There are diminishing returns to efficiency. Grocery stores, for example, are just as efficient as Amazon is even though many of them are a fraction of the size. Something like a gas station will be just as efficient whether it's ran by a mom and pop or whether it's ran by Shell. > Are the Mom & Pops going to deliver an order you place at 4 pm on your phone by 10 am the next morning? Often yes, if it's in inventory. If it's not you'll have to wait longer than you would with amazon. In fact, one of the benefits of mom and pop shops is that they can generally get things delivered to you same day because they live in the same city as you do. Much like you get same day delivery from a restaurant even though they are often mom and pop shops. But to my point above, you don't need a company the size of amazon to get next day delivery. Amazon could be broken up into several smaller (but still big) companies and it'd have close to exactly the same efficiency. It would also result in lower prices because now Amazon would have actual competition.
- AngryData 1mo ago
  I think that largely depends on what you define as "efficient". I see nothing efficient about funneling profit margins to a larger single entity that may not live in the same state, or even the same country, versus going into local hands who spend most of their money locally. Oh sure the large corporate model of stores may have a bigger pile of capital in their accounting book to spend versus the same grouping of small independent stores even if they were added together, but nowhere in the accounting book is there any mention of money leaving local economies and ultimately making it poorer and down the line reducing the value of the community which devalues the stores too. Also a mom and pop store is far more likely to be able to and willing to break from the standard mold and let you call at 4 PM and then come pick something up at 7 PM after the store would normally be closed. That might also seem "inefficient" because now some employee is sitting around an extra two hours just to serve one customer. But what about the efficiency on the customer's side who may gain even greater value by having that thing ready to go at 5 am the next day? Very few people are accounting for all the "efficiencies" that are not represented by capital holding in somebody's accounting book.
ChiperSoft 1mo ago
The sheer cost of storefront space is also a factor. Retail rents are even more ludicrous than apartments.

sroussey 1mo ago

Actually, 7-11 is a shrewd negotiator and will not invest anything over fixing something broken, and the landlord is not in charge here as these are all triple net. So it doesn’t matter who owns the land. But, yes, the corp running that business is thousands of miles away. But the real issue here a that people stop at a 7-Eleven where if the same building in same condition said Bobs Convenience Store, they would not. We learned that decades ago.

greedo 1mo ago
I don't think there's anything to back up your last sentence. In my small city, there's at least four convenience store chains, and many of them use the owner's name as part of the street (advertised) name. There's also a lot of small convenience stores that are single owner, many serving immigrant communities.
- sroussey 1mo ago
  It’s a reference as to why people go to McDonald’s even though a local one off burger place is very likely better — expectations. Particularly when traveling outside your known regular places. It does not mean that McDonald’s replaced all restaurants, nor that they are better, but it does mean that when you go to one you know exactly what you are going to get vs the uncertainty of the unknown competitor. It’s why suburbia all looks the same. And for that matter, it’s happening in cities that pride themselves on not having things like McDonald’s. There is cool kids Blue Bottle coffee in SF, and LA, etc. Whole Foods used to be only in hip places and now it anywhere trying to be hip (don’t worry, Erehwon is here to soak up hipsters cash).

jjav 1mo ago

> I think part of the reason the US doesn't feel like the US anymore I guess we can debate if that isn't what the US is about, but regardless, it is depressing. Traveling around the US, the most notable thing is how everything is the same. It is so horrible. No matter where you go, it's the same chain stores, often in the same arrangement and layout. If you get dropped blindly in most towns in the US, there is no way to tell any difference, it's all cookie cutter identical. Occasionally you run into town that have character and a unique style. Those are the treasures of the US. But I'm sure soon enough those will also be paved over with the same fast foods and chain stores to comply with being identical.