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> Worse, there are no operating systems other than OS X that fulfill my needs of a pleasant-to-use Unix/Linux system--certainly no Linux distribution comes clos

> Worse, there are no operating systems other than OS X that fulfill my needs of a pleasant-to-use Unix/Linux system--certainly no Linux distribution comes close on the "pleasant-to-use" part; I'd rather use Windows 7 and Cygwin than any Linux desktop I've been subjected to in the last five years. Sounds to me like this is just a matter of what you're used to. From my experience, OS X's UI is the last thing anyone would want if they weren't used to it. The window management is pretty damn horrible. OTOH, Linux has a variety of window managers with many innovative paradigms. > I like Lenovo's build quality and aesthetic, for example, but their laptops are universally underspecced for what I want (if your only GPU is Intel, you are not getting my money) and I can't get a Retina display, which I now consider mandatory, anywhere else. I don't know what you're doing with your machine that makes Lenovo machines underspecced, but for web and Android development, the ThinkPad X1 Carbon fits the bill. I wrote about it here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4848375 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4848375 If you want discrete graphics, that is available in other models, such as the T series, IIRC. However, for anything other than gaming or video editing, integrated graphics really is enough. I personally prefer not having discrete graphics, as it keeps me from playing games. The only thing missing is retina support, but you have the advantage of a lighter and thinner laptop than the MBP. It's no different from the MBA in that respect, with the added advantage of a 14" screen in the same body size as the 13" Air.

mannkind 14y ago
> Sounds to me like this is just a matter of what you're used to. From my experience, OS X's UI is the last thing anyone would want if they weren't used to it. The window management is pretty damn horrible. OTOH, Linux has a variety of window managers with many innovative paradigms. No, sounds like you are the one that's held back by what you're used to. Just like the OP, I'd rather use OS X over Linux and Windows; it's a toss up for 2nd place between some of the great modern Linux distros and Windows 7. I use OS X, Linux, and Windows almost daily.
- w1ntermute 14y ago
  I have used OS X extensively as well, so I have absolutely no idea on what basis you're making that statement. I've used OS X on a variety of devices, from laptops to high powered Mac Pros, and the window management has always felt sluggish to me in comparison to Windows and Linux. Having the menu for all the windows at the top of one monitor is quite simply infuriating, especially when using 2 or 3 monitors. At least Apple finally fixed not being able to resize windows from any side last year. That still doesn't match Linux window managers though, which let you resize windows with Alt+right click and move them with Alt+left click from anywhere within a window. And nothing comes even close to the control possible with tiling window managers like Xmonad. The cursor in OS X has also always felt very off - I think it's an issue with the mouse acceleration curve. I have repeatedly tried to fix this with 3rd party utilities, but nothing ever worked.
  - eropple 14y ago
    One of the somewhat frustrating assumptions running through your posts is that everyone materially gives a damn about the "control" of your window managers--as if the window manager is of more bracing importance than the applications running within. For you it may be, but to post as if this is a universal case is a little much. Personally, I've sampled Xmonad. I don't like it. I found it actively tiring and demanding of micromanagement to work with it. This is in contrast to how, on OS X, I literally don't think about windows at all. I do everything with cmd-tab and swipe gestures on the touchpad. I also don't find resizing windows to be overly difficult and I only rarely resize anything at all. (On Windows, I just use Aero Snap across four monitors, which works pretty nicely for what it is.) But the applications within, and the general lack of user focus and attention to detail, are really the core of what keep me off of the Linux and BSD desktop.
    - w1ntermute 14y ago
      > One of the somewhat frustrating assumptions running through your posts is that everyone materially gives a damn about the "control" of your window managers--as if the window manager is of more bracing importance than the applications running within. For you it may be, but to post as if this is a universal case is a little much. Well, we're specifically discussing window management, not the software running within. A comparison of Linux and OS X software is a completely different conversation. > I found it actively tiring and demanding of micromanagement to work with it. This is a common complaint, and all I can say to you, in the spirit of Steve Jobs, is that you're "doing it wrong". If you're actively managing windows with a tiling window manager, then that defeats the whole point of using the software. The idea is to have predetermined rules for how your windows will be arranged, and then not rearrange them at all (or rarely). The whole reason for Xmonad having its config file in Haskell, an actual programming language, and not just a flat file with some settings, is so that you are not limited in the logic by which your windows are managed. Granted, this does require you to learn Haskell, which is probably Xmonad's biggest practical weakness. A similar window manager written in a more popular and approachable language, such as Python, would probably have a lot more users while only sacrificing a few things. > the general lack of user focus That's quite ironic, given that this entire thread is the result of Apple ignoring user interests.
eropple 14y ago
Sounds to me like this is just a matter of what you're used to. From my experience, OS X's UI is the last thing anyone would want if they weren't used to it. The window management is pretty damn horrible. OTOH, Linux has a variety of window managers with many innovative paradigms. Your experience does not match mine but thank you for trivializing mine by assuming that it's just what I'm used to. Never mind that I come from a Windows and Linux background, to OS X about three years ago, right? I find the OS X window model appealing (though not without its warts) and its gesture support fantastic. Mission Control maps far better to the way that I think about multiple desktops than GNOME's or KDE's--and I compare to those and not your "innovative window managers" because I've been there, I've done that, and I have determined that they're not for me. I have been down the tiling window manager road and I find it demanding of micromanagement; it does not map to how I think or work and I have no interest in contorting to fit it. Likewise, I have no interest in putting up with sharp bits and pointy edges in Unity or GNOME 3 or KDE 4 (I've been there, too, and reject the T-shirt). If you want discrete graphics, that is available in other models, such as the T series, IIRC. However, for anything other than gaming or video editing, integrated graphics really is enough. The rMBP is not my only computer, but, yes, I want to be able to play games on it when I'm traveling. The rMBP is really good at it (I generally just play through Parallels, I don't bother to reboot). The T-series Lenovos are massive, heavy, lack Retina displays, and aren't nearly as aesthetically pleasing as the Carbon X1 is. Would never buy. The only thing missing is retina support, but you have the advantage of a lighter and thinner laptop than the MBP. "Except for the most important thing, you get some of the things." Sure, I'm being flip there, but it's not unserious: for my money, retina support is just not optional anymore. People say they can't go back after using a retina display because it's true. For me, the difference is that stark. The 3x 21" 1080p panels on my desktop feel distractingly blurry and they make me irritable to work on for long periods of time. (Most disappointing thing to me is that the DisplayPort outputs on the rMBP can't output 4K, but 2560x1600 displays look okay when put far enough back on my desk.)
- w1ntermute 14y ago
  > Never mind that I come from a Windows and Linux background, to OS X about three years ago, right? I think that a lot of people are willing to put up with the transition to OS X because of the RDF and the iPod/iPhone halo effect, but the transition away has no such phenomenon to motivate people to use a platform long enough to get used to the differences. However, this is just a general observation. > I have no interest in putting up with sharp bits and pointy edges in Unity or GNOME 3 or KDE 4 Meh, I find that the "sharp bits" are no more sharp than those in OS X. No platform can be perfect for any given user, since we all have different preferences. The closest you can get is with a highly-customizable tiling window manager, but anything like OS X, Windows or KDE wouldn't work like this. > The T-series Lenovos are massive, heavy, lack Retina displays, and aren't nearly as aesthetically pleasing as the Carbon X1 is. Would never buy. You clearly are not up-to-date on this. Have you seen the T430u? It weighs less than the rMBP 15", has discrete graphics, and has similar aesthetic stylings to the X1 Carbon. The optical drive has been omitted, for example. > for my money, retina support is just not optional anymore FWIW, I've found it to be half-baked when a lot of software and most websites don't support it yet. Browsing the web on a retina display is rather jarring. Moreover, when I regularly use external displays at my desk, switching back and forth would be quite jarring as well.
AlexandrB 14y ago
> From my experience, OS X's UI is the last thing anyone would want if they weren't used to it. I switched away from Linux/Windows XP dual booting to a Macbook with OSX after 5+ years. I much prefer OSX to either alternative. I still love Linux for server or embedded applications but the Linux desktop experience continues to frustrate me. Unity has only made it worse.
rimantas 14y ago
> OS X's UI is the last thing anyone would want if they > weren't used to it I was very used to MS world, living in it (DOS and Windows, from 3.11 to XP) 1990-2006. I got my first iBook G4 in 2006 and never looked back to Win. In 2006-2007 I was using OS X, Win and Linux in parallel. I know pretty well why did I stick with OS X and it has nothing to do with being used to it.

mannkind 14y ago

> Sounds to me like this is just a matter of what you're used to. From my experience, OS X's UI is the last thing anyone would want if they weren't used to it. The window management is pretty damn horrible. OTOH, Linux has a variety of window managers with many innovative paradigms. No, sounds like you are the one that's held back by what you're used to. Just like the OP, I'd rather use OS X over Linux and Windows; it's a toss up for 2nd place between some of the great modern Linux distros and Windows 7. I use OS X, Linux, and Windows almost daily.

w1ntermute 14y ago
I have used OS X extensively as well, so I have absolutely no idea on what basis you're making that statement. I've used OS X on a variety of devices, from laptops to high powered Mac Pros, and the window management has always felt sluggish to me in comparison to Windows and Linux. Having the menu for all the windows at the top of one monitor is quite simply infuriating, especially when using 2 or 3 monitors. At least Apple finally fixed not being able to resize windows from any side last year. That still doesn't match Linux window managers though, which let you resize windows with Alt+right click and move them with Alt+left click from anywhere within a window. And nothing comes even close to the control possible with tiling window managers like Xmonad. The cursor in OS X has also always felt very off - I think it's an issue with the mouse acceleration curve. I have repeatedly tried to fix this with 3rd party utilities, but nothing ever worked.
- eropple 14y ago
  One of the somewhat frustrating assumptions running through your posts is that everyone materially gives a damn about the "control" of your window managers--as if the window manager is of more bracing importance than the applications running within. For you it may be, but to post as if this is a universal case is a little much. Personally, I've sampled Xmonad. I don't like it. I found it actively tiring and demanding of micromanagement to work with it. This is in contrast to how, on OS X, I literally don't think about windows at all. I do everything with cmd-tab and swipe gestures on the touchpad. I also don't find resizing windows to be overly difficult and I only rarely resize anything at all. (On Windows, I just use Aero Snap across four monitors, which works pretty nicely for what it is.) But the applications within, and the general lack of user focus and attention to detail, are really the core of what keep me off of the Linux and BSD desktop.
  - w1ntermute 14y ago
    > One of the somewhat frustrating assumptions running through your posts is that everyone materially gives a damn about the "control" of your window managers--as if the window manager is of more bracing importance than the applications running within. For you it may be, but to post as if this is a universal case is a little much. Well, we're specifically discussing window management, not the software running within. A comparison of Linux and OS X software is a completely different conversation. > I found it actively tiring and demanding of micromanagement to work with it. This is a common complaint, and all I can say to you, in the spirit of Steve Jobs, is that you're "doing it wrong". If you're actively managing windows with a tiling window manager, then that defeats the whole point of using the software. The idea is to have predetermined rules for how your windows will be arranged, and then not rearrange them at all (or rarely). The whole reason for Xmonad having its config file in Haskell, an actual programming language, and not just a flat file with some settings, is so that you are not limited in the logic by which your windows are managed. Granted, this does require you to learn Haskell, which is probably Xmonad's biggest practical weakness. A similar window manager written in a more popular and approachable language, such as Python, would probably have a lot more users while only sacrificing a few things. > the general lack of user focus That's quite ironic, given that this entire thread is the result of Apple ignoring user interests.

eropple 14y ago

Sounds to me like this is just a matter of what you're used to. From my experience, OS X's UI is the last thing anyone would want if they weren't used to it. The window management is pretty damn horrible. OTOH, Linux has a variety of window managers with many innovative paradigms. Your experience does not match mine but thank you for trivializing mine by assuming that it's just what I'm used to. Never mind that I come from a Windows and Linux background, to OS X about three years ago, right? I find the OS X window model appealing (though not without its warts) and its gesture support fantastic. Mission Control maps far better to the way that I think about multiple desktops than GNOME's or KDE's--and I compare to those and not your "innovative window managers" because I've been there, I've done that, and I have determined that they're not for me. I have been down the tiling window manager road and I find it demanding of micromanagement; it does not map to how I think or work and I have no interest in contorting to fit it. Likewise, I have no interest in putting up with sharp bits and pointy edges in Unity or GNOME 3 or KDE 4 (I've been there, too, and reject the T-shirt). If you want discrete graphics, that is available in other models, such as the T series, IIRC. However, for anything other than gaming or video editing, integrated graphics really is enough. The rMBP is not my only computer, but, yes, I want to be able to play games on it when I'm traveling. The rMBP is really good at it (I generally just play through Parallels, I don't bother to reboot). The T-series Lenovos are massive, heavy, lack Retina displays, and aren't nearly as aesthetically pleasing as the Carbon X1 is. Would never buy. The only thing missing is retina support, but you have the advantage of a lighter and thinner laptop than the MBP. "Except for the most important thing, you get some of the things." Sure, I'm being flip there, but it's not unserious: for my money, retina support is just not optional anymore. People say they can't go back after using a retina display because it's true. For me, the difference is that stark. The 3x 21" 1080p panels on my desktop feel distractingly blurry and they make me irritable to work on for long periods of time. (Most disappointing thing to me is that the DisplayPort outputs on the rMBP can't output 4K, but 2560x1600 displays look okay when put far enough back on my desk.)

w1ntermute 14y ago
> Never mind that I come from a Windows and Linux background, to OS X about three years ago, right? I think that a lot of people are willing to put up with the transition to OS X because of the RDF and the iPod/iPhone halo effect, but the transition away has no such phenomenon to motivate people to use a platform long enough to get used to the differences. However, this is just a general observation. > I have no interest in putting up with sharp bits and pointy edges in Unity or GNOME 3 or KDE 4 Meh, I find that the "sharp bits" are no more sharp than those in OS X. No platform can be perfect for any given user, since we all have different preferences. The closest you can get is with a highly-customizable tiling window manager, but anything like OS X, Windows or KDE wouldn't work like this. > The T-series Lenovos are massive, heavy, lack Retina displays, and aren't nearly as aesthetically pleasing as the Carbon X1 is. Would never buy. You clearly are not up-to-date on this. Have you seen the T430u? It weighs less than the rMBP 15", has discrete graphics, and has similar aesthetic stylings to the X1 Carbon. The optical drive has been omitted, for example. > for my money, retina support is just not optional anymore FWIW, I've found it to be half-baked when a lot of software and most websites don't support it yet. Browsing the web on a retina display is rather jarring. Moreover, when I regularly use external displays at my desk, switching back and forth would be quite jarring as well.

AlexandrB 14y ago

> From my experience, OS X's UI is the last thing anyone would want if they weren't used to it. I switched away from Linux/Windows XP dual booting to a Macbook with OSX after 5+ years. I much prefer OSX to either alternative. I still love Linux for server or embedded applications but the Linux desktop experience continues to frustrate me. Unity has only made it worse.

rimantas 14y ago

> OS X's UI is the last thing anyone would want if they > weren't used to it I was very used to MS world, living in it (DOS and Windows, from 3.11 to XP) 1990-2006. I got my first iBook G4 in 2006 and never looked back to Win. In 2006-2007 I was using OS X, Win and Linux in parallel. I know pretty well why did I stick with OS X and it has nothing to do with being used to it.