4 ms·

And are British, at least in Australia (and the US, I guess?) we pronounce the second "i". It is always fun when you notice where someone is from based on seco

by cyphar 1mo ago

And are British, at least in Australia (and the US, I guess?) we pronounce the second "i". It is always fun when you notice where someone is from based on secondary clues like that -- my favourite is the choice of "a" or "an" where it is ambiguous (for instance, I recently ran across "an HTTP request" where I would've said "a HTTP request").

SyneRyder 1mo ago
The term for this is a "shibboleth", if it's of interest: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shibboleth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shibboleth
- lproven 1mo ago
  A shibboleth is a little more specific: it's the pronunciation of one specific sound in a different way that marks out a person as from one specific group. So, some of the go-tos... New Zealand English tends to turn an /i/ in even stressed positions into schwa (the sound on the end of "little", or "umbrella", or "gopher", and one of the key sounds to master for a non-native learner who wants to improve their English accent). When a Kiwi says "fish and chips" it sounds like "fush and chups", "swimming pool" becomes "swumming pool", and this is _the_ way to distinguish a Kiwi from an Australian, because to the rest of the Anglophone world, NZ English sounds very like Aus English. Canadians tend to pronounce the "ow" sound in words like "about" in a way that to my British ear sounds Scottish: it becomes "aboot". So if I hear someone speaking with an American sounding accent but they say "I found oot aboot something," I ask them if they're Canadian. I tend to find most Canadians and New Zealanders are delighted if someone is able to tell, so ask very early on and you can make new friends. :-)
  - SyneRyder 1mo ago
    > and this is _the_ way to distinguish a Kiwi from an Australian Well, that, and Kiwis tend to say "hey bro" a lot ;) Beached Whale: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdVHZwI8pcA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdVHZwI8pcA
    - lproven 1mo ago
      I guess I have mainly met older kiwis! I slightly know Terry Stewart of https://www.classic-computers.org.nz/ from mailing lists, and while I don't follow any Youtube channels as a rule, I used to enjoy his videos: https://www.youtube.com/@tezzaNZ I probably heard more NZ English from Terry than anyone else!
- cyphar 1mo ago
  My understanding of shibboleth is that it refers to the primary pronunciation identifying the speaker (which is how it was used biblically). Those are also interesting but it feels a bit more special to me when it's a secondary speech characteristic because it feels a bit more like a clue in a detective novel -- it almost feels like you can hear inside the author's head and how they vocalise while they write. In this case, "missle" is a malapropism that is only possible if you don't pronounce the second "i", and so is a secondary "speech" characteristic.
likis 1mo ago
I thought the rules were clear and it depends on how the word is pronounced, with a vowel or consonant sound. I have only heard people say H T T P, as specific letters when pronouncing HTTP, and thus the a or an should be based on how one would pronounce the letter "H". And H would be pronounced as "aitch". Starts with an a -> vowel sound -> should be "an". But I'm a non native english speaker, so I'm happy to be proven wrong.
- JoshTriplett 1mo ago
  Some UK speakers pronounce "H" as "haitch" (with a non-silent leading 'h'), not "aitch". Which leads to "a haitch tee ...". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H#Name https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H#Name
  - amiga386 1mo ago
    Specifically, upper-class Brits pronounce the "h". See this classic Monty Python sketch which makes fun of it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnq96W9jtuw&t=66s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnq96W9jtuw&t=66s Praline: 'Ello. I would like to buy a fish license, please. Clerk: A what? Praline: A license for my pet fish, Eric. Clerk: How did you know my name was Eric? Praline: No, no, no, no. My _fish's_ name is Eric. Eric the fish. 'E's an 'alibut. Clerk: What? Praline (in upper-class accent): He is an halibut. There was a lot of discourse about the (then declining) aristocracy and their mannerisms, accents and so on, in the 1950s and 1960s. In particular, discussion of "U" (upper class) versus "non-U" English, highlighting the differences in language usage between classes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U_and_non-U_English https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U_and_non-U_English The Pythons were highly attuned to this class distinction and wrote it into their sketches. Another good sketch is an upper-class family distinguishing "woody" and "tinny" sounds, but the whole sketch's premise is to laugh at the odd mannerisms of the upper-classes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3-51DhOzHE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3-51DhOzHE
    - amiga386 1mo ago
      Perhaps the most succinct explanation of British class difference is the famous Frost Report sketch featuring John Cleese, Ronnie Barker and Ronnie Corbett: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_sketch https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_sketch https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00hhrwl https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00hhrwl

by cyphar 1mo ago

SyneRyder 1mo ago

The term for this is a "shibboleth", if it's of interest: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shibboleth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shibboleth

lproven 1mo ago
A shibboleth is a little more specific: it's the pronunciation of one specific sound in a different way that marks out a person as from one specific group. So, some of the go-tos... New Zealand English tends to turn an /i/ in even stressed positions into schwa (the sound on the end of "little", or "umbrella", or "gopher", and one of the key sounds to master for a non-native learner who wants to improve their English accent). When a Kiwi says "fish and chips" it sounds like "fush and chups", "swimming pool" becomes "swumming pool", and this is _the_ way to distinguish a Kiwi from an Australian, because to the rest of the Anglophone world, NZ English sounds very like Aus English. Canadians tend to pronounce the "ow" sound in words like "about" in a way that to my British ear sounds Scottish: it becomes "aboot". So if I hear someone speaking with an American sounding accent but they say "I found oot aboot something," I ask them if they're Canadian. I tend to find most Canadians and New Zealanders are delighted if someone is able to tell, so ask very early on and you can make new friends. :-)
- SyneRyder 1mo ago
  > and this is _the_ way to distinguish a Kiwi from an Australian Well, that, and Kiwis tend to say "hey bro" a lot ;) Beached Whale: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdVHZwI8pcA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdVHZwI8pcA
  - lproven 1mo ago
    I guess I have mainly met older kiwis! I slightly know Terry Stewart of https://www.classic-computers.org.nz/ from mailing lists, and while I don't follow any Youtube channels as a rule, I used to enjoy his videos: https://www.youtube.com/@tezzaNZ I probably heard more NZ English from Terry than anyone else!
cyphar 1mo ago
My understanding of shibboleth is that it refers to the primary pronunciation identifying the speaker (which is how it was used biblically). Those are also interesting but it feels a bit more special to me when it's a secondary speech characteristic because it feels a bit more like a clue in a detective novel -- it almost feels like you can hear inside the author's head and how they vocalise while they write. In this case, "missle" is a malapropism that is only possible if you don't pronounce the second "i", and so is a secondary "speech" characteristic.

likis 1mo ago

I thought the rules were clear and it depends on how the word is pronounced, with a vowel or consonant sound. I have only heard people say H T T P, as specific letters when pronouncing HTTP, and thus the a or an should be based on how one would pronounce the letter "H". And H would be pronounced as "aitch". Starts with an a -> vowel sound -> should be "an". But I'm a non native english speaker, so I'm happy to be proven wrong.

JoshTriplett 1mo ago
Some UK speakers pronounce "H" as "haitch" (with a non-silent leading 'h'), not "aitch". Which leads to "a haitch tee ...". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H#Name https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H#Name
- amiga386 1mo ago
  Specifically, upper-class Brits pronounce the "h". See this classic Monty Python sketch which makes fun of it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnq96W9jtuw&t=66s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnq96W9jtuw&t=66s Praline: 'Ello. I would like to buy a fish license, please. Clerk: A what? Praline: A license for my pet fish, Eric. Clerk: How did you know my name was Eric? Praline: No, no, no, no. My _fish's_ name is Eric. Eric the fish. 'E's an 'alibut. Clerk: What? Praline (in upper-class accent): He is an halibut. There was a lot of discourse about the (then declining) aristocracy and their mannerisms, accents and so on, in the 1950s and 1960s. In particular, discussion of "U" (upper class) versus "non-U" English, highlighting the differences in language usage between classes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U_and_non-U_English https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U_and_non-U_English The Pythons were highly attuned to this class distinction and wrote it into their sketches. Another good sketch is an upper-class family distinguishing "woody" and "tinny" sounds, but the whole sketch's premise is to laugh at the odd mannerisms of the upper-classes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3-51DhOzHE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3-51DhOzHE
  - amiga386 1mo ago
    Perhaps the most succinct explanation of British class difference is the famous Frost Report sketch featuring John Cleese, Ronnie Barker and Ronnie Corbett: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_sketch https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_sketch https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00hhrwl https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00hhrwl