9 ms·

Well certainly, no one thing is impervious. But if you have GPS, LORAN, VORs, NDBs, astronavigation, etc. you have many more options at your disposal and presen

by teeray 1mo ago

Well certainly, no one thing is impervious. But if you have GPS, LORAN, VORs, NDBs, astronavigation, etc. you have many more options at your disposal and present a much more complex attack target.

butvacuum 1mo ago
It's 2026: we have more ways to defeat jamming, or make it irrelevant, at unit costs trivial for commercial and most private applications. 1) atomic clocks can be smaller than a closed fist and allow GPS to work with 3 satalites with ocassional drops to 2. 2) the same clocks can be used to filter out radio sources from the wrong direction. 3) star navigation (commercial is often above weather, most weather is clear in some IR bands) 4) Terain following (easy to store maps now) 5) Inertial. 6) magnetic When combined it is very hard to break the position fix. I expect the issue with the system is it's a military tech. with all it's that'll associated legal problems. After all. it'd bypass most the protections built into GPS modules.
- wbl 1mo ago
  And the military has JDAM with HOJ as a solution for jamming
  - butvacuum 1mo ago
    I was thinking G-man and a suprise helicopter on your lawn. The government hasn't made a spectical of throwing the book at a jammer recently.
mschuster91 1mo ago
> astronavigation Good luck finding a pilot trained on doing this, or an aircraft with high enough window cutouts that allow for the use of a sextant. Old Boeings had them [1], but no modern aircraft does. I think even among navies you'll be hard pressed to find a navigator who still can do astronavigation. IIRC even the US Navy discontinued astronavigation, but recently-ish reintroduced training for it again. [1] https://virginflightdeck.blogspot.com/2010_09_01_archive.html https://virginflightdeck.blogspot.com/2010_09_01_archive.htm...
- teeray 1mo ago
  > Good luck finding a pilot trained on doing this Not necessary. ICBMs have been able to do this autonomously for a very long time [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celestial_navigation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celestial_navigation
- leonidasrup 1mo ago
  In the 21st century you don't do astronavigation by hand, you use cameras, computers and software. Astro-inertial guidance is used for example in submarine-launched ballistic missiles. "Astro-inertial guidance, or stellar-inertial guidance, is a sensor fusion-information fusion of inertial guidance and celestial navigation. It is usually employed on submarine-launched ballistic missiles. Unlike silo-based intercontinental ballistic missiles, whose launch point does not move and thus can serve as a reference, SLBMs are launched from moving submarines, which complicates the necessary navigational calculations and increases circular error probable. Stellar-inertial guidance is used to correct small position and velocity errors that result from launch condition uncertainties due to errors in the submarine navigation system and errors that may have accumulated in the guidance system during the flight due to imperfect instrument calibration." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missile_guidance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missile_guidance
  - mschuster91 1mo ago
    Yeah but good luck getting that approved for new airliner designs, much less retrofitting it into existing airliners. For the older ones, you'd probably need to rework half their computers.
    - bluGill 1mo ago
      Approval in aviation is hard, no argument there. Everybody making a GPS is aware of jamming issues and looking at what their options are. I doubt there is any option that isn't expensive and years out from airplanes. However they are likely to start rolling things out in the next few years just because they need to do something. Don't forget there is a lot more than aviation. Hikers will want jamming protection if it isn't too expensive (depending on what protection we are talking about it come be cheap or expensive)

by teeray 1mo ago

Well certainly, no one thing is impervious. But if you have GPS, LORAN, VORs, NDBs, astronavigation, etc. you have many more options at your disposal and present a much more complex attack target.

butvacuum 1mo ago

It's 2026: we have more ways to defeat jamming, or make it irrelevant, at unit costs trivial for commercial and most private applications. 1) atomic clocks can be smaller than a closed fist and allow GPS to work with 3 satalites with ocassional drops to 2. 2) the same clocks can be used to filter out radio sources from the wrong direction. 3) star navigation (commercial is often above weather, most weather is clear in some IR bands) 4) Terain following (easy to store maps now) 5) Inertial. 6) magnetic When combined it is very hard to break the position fix. I expect the issue with the system is it's a military tech. with all it's that'll associated legal problems. After all. it'd bypass most the protections built into GPS modules.

wbl 1mo ago
And the military has JDAM with HOJ as a solution for jamming
- butvacuum 1mo ago
  I was thinking G-man and a suprise helicopter on your lawn. The government hasn't made a spectical of throwing the book at a jammer recently.

mschuster91 1mo ago

> astronavigation Good luck finding a pilot trained on doing this, or an aircraft with high enough window cutouts that allow for the use of a sextant. Old Boeings had them [1], but no modern aircraft does. I think even among navies you'll be hard pressed to find a navigator who still can do astronavigation. IIRC even the US Navy discontinued astronavigation, but recently-ish reintroduced training for it again. [1] https://virginflightdeck.blogspot.com/2010_09_01_archive.html https://virginflightdeck.blogspot.com/2010_09_01_archive.htm...

teeray 1mo ago
> Good luck finding a pilot trained on doing this Not necessary. ICBMs have been able to do this autonomously for a very long time [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celestial_navigation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celestial_navigation
leonidasrup 1mo ago
In the 21st century you don't do astronavigation by hand, you use cameras, computers and software. Astro-inertial guidance is used for example in submarine-launched ballistic missiles. "Astro-inertial guidance, or stellar-inertial guidance, is a sensor fusion-information fusion of inertial guidance and celestial navigation. It is usually employed on submarine-launched ballistic missiles. Unlike silo-based intercontinental ballistic missiles, whose launch point does not move and thus can serve as a reference, SLBMs are launched from moving submarines, which complicates the necessary navigational calculations and increases circular error probable. Stellar-inertial guidance is used to correct small position and velocity errors that result from launch condition uncertainties due to errors in the submarine navigation system and errors that may have accumulated in the guidance system during the flight due to imperfect instrument calibration." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missile_guidance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missile_guidance
- mschuster91 1mo ago
  Yeah but good luck getting that approved for new airliner designs, much less retrofitting it into existing airliners. For the older ones, you'd probably need to rework half their computers.
  - bluGill 1mo ago
    Approval in aviation is hard, no argument there. Everybody making a GPS is aware of jamming issues and looking at what their options are. I doubt there is any option that isn't expensive and years out from airplanes. However they are likely to start rolling things out in the next few years just because they need to do something. Don't forget there is a lot more than aviation. Hikers will want jamming protection if it isn't too expensive (depending on what protection we are talking about it come be cheap or expensive)