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> your own solar, wind, and fossil fuel generation. The OP was clearly talking about on premises primary power generation for datacenters. The utility doesn't

by danans 27d ago

> your own solar, wind, and fossil fuel generation. The OP was clearly talking about on premises primary power generation for datacenters. The utility doesn't have a way to own my residential generation.

rickydroll 26d ago
They kinda do via net metering tariffs and curtailment. I'm a big fan of 0 export systems as a way to keep more for yourself. Now if one could get spot prices and sell your power then...the system gets more interesting.
- danans 26d ago
  > They kinda do via net metering tariffs and curtailment. They don't own your system through net metering. If you have net metering you are using the grid as a battery, which has a cost - the infrastructure to support net metering isn't free. For a long time residential solar customers (like me) were being subsidized for the upstream load we put on the grid. > Now if one could get spot prices and sell your power then...the system gets more interesting. They are running a pilot of this in California (PG&E): https://www.pge.com/en/account/rate-plans/hourly-flex-pricing.html https://www.pge.com/en/account/rate-plans/hourly-flex-pricin... It's currently restricted to downstream only customers. They plan to admit net metering customers to the pilot in the future. Even outside of that, anyone can enroll a home battery in a demand response program to make money by supporting the grid during peak hours.
  - rickydroll 26d ago
    That's why I said kinda. Strictly speaking, you are right. They don't own your system. However, to me if somebody controls what you do with your electricity I.e export or curtailed, you don't own the the work product of your system. Virtual power plant model you've described doesn't exist here in New England. National grid has some sort of thing where you can make a grand or two a year if they can use your battery during times of high demand. If I could do it standard off-the-shelf components, I could put together such a system for $6,000 installed but the payoff is in the decade range since we have flat rate power through municipal buying co-op.
    - danans 26d ago
      > However, to me if somebody controls what you do with your electricity I.e export or curtailed, you don't own the the work product of your system. They are controlling/charging for the use of the infrastructure. If you want to export power to, for example, the AI datacenter down the road, that power has to flow through the utility's lines, transformers, substations, etc. all of that incurs a cost to that infrastructure, including additional maintenance and faster depreciation and replacement times. It's like the roads leading to your house - you pay for those also, via some form of tax. And if they are congested to an unsafe level, your access to them can be similarly metered or curtailed. Also like roads, electricity distribution is a natural monopoly - you aren't going to have tons of companies stringing up independent power lines - for safety reasons at the minimum, which is why it's good if it's run by an accountable municipal agency, rather than an unaccountable for-profit corporation.
      - rickydroll 26d ago
        good points, using the grid as an export sink, incurs externalities. the choice is to pay them by accepting the net-metering rate or avoid them by running a zero export system.

by danans 27d ago

rickydroll 26d ago

They kinda do via net metering tariffs and curtailment. I'm a big fan of 0 export systems as a way to keep more for yourself. Now if one could get spot prices and sell your power then...the system gets more interesting.

danans 26d ago
> They kinda do via net metering tariffs and curtailment. They don't own your system through net metering. If you have net metering you are using the grid as a battery, which has a cost - the infrastructure to support net metering isn't free. For a long time residential solar customers (like me) were being subsidized for the upstream load we put on the grid. > Now if one could get spot prices and sell your power then...the system gets more interesting. They are running a pilot of this in California (PG&E): https://www.pge.com/en/account/rate-plans/hourly-flex-pricing.html https://www.pge.com/en/account/rate-plans/hourly-flex-pricin... It's currently restricted to downstream only customers. They plan to admit net metering customers to the pilot in the future. Even outside of that, anyone can enroll a home battery in a demand response program to make money by supporting the grid during peak hours.
- rickydroll 26d ago
  That's why I said kinda. Strictly speaking, you are right. They don't own your system. However, to me if somebody controls what you do with your electricity I.e export or curtailed, you don't own the the work product of your system. Virtual power plant model you've described doesn't exist here in New England. National grid has some sort of thing where you can make a grand or two a year if they can use your battery during times of high demand. If I could do it standard off-the-shelf components, I could put together such a system for $6,000 installed but the payoff is in the decade range since we have flat rate power through municipal buying co-op.
  - danans 26d ago
    > However, to me if somebody controls what you do with your electricity I.e export or curtailed, you don't own the the work product of your system. They are controlling/charging for the use of the infrastructure. If you want to export power to, for example, the AI datacenter down the road, that power has to flow through the utility's lines, transformers, substations, etc. all of that incurs a cost to that infrastructure, including additional maintenance and faster depreciation and replacement times. It's like the roads leading to your house - you pay for those also, via some form of tax. And if they are congested to an unsafe level, your access to them can be similarly metered or curtailed. Also like roads, electricity distribution is a natural monopoly - you aren't going to have tons of companies stringing up independent power lines - for safety reasons at the minimum, which is why it's good if it's run by an accountable municipal agency, rather than an unaccountable for-profit corporation.
    - rickydroll 26d ago
      good points, using the grid as an export sink, incurs externalities. the choice is to pay them by accepting the net-metering rate or avoid them by running a zero export system.