4 ms·

But if the "mildest mean available" of self-defence against a knife assailant is a gun, the a gun is the most appropriate, simply because others aren't availabl

by whstl 1mo ago

But if the "mildest mean available" of self-defence against a knife assailant is a gun, the a gun is the most appropriate, simply because others aren't available. Naturally pretty much nobody has a gun, so not a problem, but this has happened and has been discussed. Germany doesn't have proportionality. And there are even other articles like §33 StGB, which excuses excess arising from fear, fright or confusion, which is what happens if someone points a knife at you. "Gebotenheit" refers mainly to what I'm talking about in my second sentence (trying other means before shooting) and to sozialethische Einschränkungen (e.g.: psychosis, provocation, trivial attacks, etc), it doesn't "forbid" using a legal gun against an assailant actively attacking you with a knife as a last resort.

weinzierl 1mo ago
Doesn't change what I'm saying. When you use a gun against an attacker with a knife expect to end up before a judge as the defendant and not as the victim. The court will decide if using the gun in this specific case was necessary (notwendig) and appropriate (geboten). Only if it was both will you go unpunished.
- whstl 1mo ago
  Once again: Erforderlich, not notwendig. And nope, nope, nope. It only goes to court if the police investigation supports it wasn't self-defence, and a public prosecutor decides to move the case forward. The realistic endpoint for a clean case is a dismissal letter from the prosecutor, not a courtroom. And this is true for everyone: even police can't kill someone and not expect an investigation. However naturally it doesn't go to court, for obvious reasons.
  - weinzierl 1mo ago
    Find me one case of gun vs knife that did not go to court. You will find plenty that did exactly for the reasons I mentioned.
    - whstl 1mo ago
      This is an extremely loaded request that once again shows lacks of familiarity with legal systems. Prosecutor dismissals don't and shouldn't generate published decisions or press coverage the same way trials do. Why should they? They would only serve to besmirch the name of people who are innocent in the first place, and potentially put a target on their backs. You are asking me to dig into private data that I don't have access to, and Germany is a country that respects privacy. However here's a few samples here of cases that got a lot of publicity before there could be a case, and where the dismissals were publicized: > "Die Staatsanwaltschaft wertete das Verhalten des Jägers als Notwehr – und stellte das Verfahren gegen den 63-Jährigen ein. Die Familie des Albaners hatte Beschwerde gegen den Beschluss eingelegt. Die Generalstaatsanwaltschaft Hamm bestätigte nun jedoch die Entscheidung." https://www.focus.de/panorama/trotz-verstoss-gegen-waffengesetz-fluechtling-bei-einbruch-erschossen-staatsanwaltschaft-stellt-verfahren-gegen-jaeger-ein_id_6411326.html https://www.focus.de/panorama/trotz-verstoss-gegen-waffenges... > "Da die Abgabe eines gezielten Schusses in dieser Situation die einzige Möglichkeit darstellte, einen Messerangriff auf sich oder ihre Kollegen abzuwehren, war das Vorgehen der Polizeibeamtin aufgrund von Notwehr bzw. Nothilfe gerechtfertigt. Ein strafbares Verhalten liegt somit nicht vor." https://www.justiz.bayern.de/gerichte-und-behoerden/staatsanwaltschaft/nuernberg-fuerth/presse/2025/1.php https://www.justiz.bayern.de/gerichte-und-behoerden/staatsan... > "Die tödlichen Schüsse wurden in Notwehr abgegeben: Mit dieser Begründung hat die Staatsanwaltschaft Göttingen jetzt das Ermittlungsverfahren gegen zwei Polizisten eingestellt" https://taz.de/Nach-toedlichen-Polizeischuessen/!6086215/ https://taz.de/Nach-toedlichen-Polizeischuessen/!6086215/ > "Ansbach: +++ Polizeilicher Schusswaffengebrauch in Ansbach – Polizei stoppt 47-Jährigen mit Schuss ins Bein – Staatsanwaltschaft Ansbach stellt Ermittlungen gegen Polizeibeamte ein +++" https://fraenkischer.de/ansbach-polizeilicher-schusswaffengebrauch-in-ansbach-polizei-stoppt-47-jaehrigen-mit-schuss-ins-bein-staatsanwaltschaft-ansbach-stellt-ermittlungen-gegen-polizeibeamte-ein/ https://fraenkischer.de/ansbach-polizeilicher-schusswaffenge...

by whstl 1mo ago

weinzierl 1mo ago

Doesn't change what I'm saying. When you use a gun against an attacker with a knife expect to end up before a judge as the defendant and not as the victim. The court will decide if using the gun in this specific case was necessary (notwendig) and appropriate (geboten). Only if it was both will you go unpunished.

whstl 1mo ago
Once again: Erforderlich, not notwendig. And nope, nope, nope. It only goes to court if the police investigation supports it wasn't self-defence, and a public prosecutor decides to move the case forward. The realistic endpoint for a clean case is a dismissal letter from the prosecutor, not a courtroom. And this is true for everyone: even police can't kill someone and not expect an investigation. However naturally it doesn't go to court, for obvious reasons.
- weinzierl 1mo ago
  Find me one case of gun vs knife that did not go to court. You will find plenty that did exactly for the reasons I mentioned.
  - whstl 1mo ago
    This is an extremely loaded request that once again shows lacks of familiarity with legal systems. Prosecutor dismissals don't and shouldn't generate published decisions or press coverage the same way trials do. Why should they? They would only serve to besmirch the name of people who are innocent in the first place, and potentially put a target on their backs. You are asking me to dig into private data that I don't have access to, and Germany is a country that respects privacy. However here's a few samples here of cases that got a lot of publicity before there could be a case, and where the dismissals were publicized: > "Die Staatsanwaltschaft wertete das Verhalten des Jägers als Notwehr – und stellte das Verfahren gegen den 63-Jährigen ein. Die Familie des Albaners hatte Beschwerde gegen den Beschluss eingelegt. Die Generalstaatsanwaltschaft Hamm bestätigte nun jedoch die Entscheidung." https://www.focus.de/panorama/trotz-verstoss-gegen-waffengesetz-fluechtling-bei-einbruch-erschossen-staatsanwaltschaft-stellt-verfahren-gegen-jaeger-ein_id_6411326.html https://www.focus.de/panorama/trotz-verstoss-gegen-waffenges... > "Da die Abgabe eines gezielten Schusses in dieser Situation die einzige Möglichkeit darstellte, einen Messerangriff auf sich oder ihre Kollegen abzuwehren, war das Vorgehen der Polizeibeamtin aufgrund von Notwehr bzw. Nothilfe gerechtfertigt. Ein strafbares Verhalten liegt somit nicht vor." https://www.justiz.bayern.de/gerichte-und-behoerden/staatsanwaltschaft/nuernberg-fuerth/presse/2025/1.php https://www.justiz.bayern.de/gerichte-und-behoerden/staatsan... > "Die tödlichen Schüsse wurden in Notwehr abgegeben: Mit dieser Begründung hat die Staatsanwaltschaft Göttingen jetzt das Ermittlungsverfahren gegen zwei Polizisten eingestellt" https://taz.de/Nach-toedlichen-Polizeischuessen/!6086215/ https://taz.de/Nach-toedlichen-Polizeischuessen/!6086215/ > "Ansbach: +++ Polizeilicher Schusswaffengebrauch in Ansbach – Polizei stoppt 47-Jährigen mit Schuss ins Bein – Staatsanwaltschaft Ansbach stellt Ermittlungen gegen Polizeibeamte ein +++" https://fraenkischer.de/ansbach-polizeilicher-schusswaffengebrauch-in-ansbach-polizei-stoppt-47-jaehrigen-mit-schuss-ins-bein-staatsanwaltschaft-ansbach-stellt-ermittlungen-gegen-polizeibeamte-ein/ https://fraenkischer.de/ansbach-polizeilicher-schusswaffenge...