3 ms·

So windows is open source because the binaries are a lossy compression of the original source?

by LtWorf 2mo ago

NitpickLawyer 2mo ago
Weights are not binary. A model is created at init time, with random values. After that, it is being modified using data. The key point is that the labs modify the models "as weights". That means that weights are the intended / preferred way of modifying a model. Which, coincidentally, matches the definition of source in Apache 2.0. There is no "higher level" place where editing takes place. It all happens in weight space. Through the license you get the same rights as the lab that created it: view, inspect, run, modify, re-release. That's it. That's the only thing a license can grant you. The rest is semantics, misunderstandings, and FUD. A model released under an open source license is open source. Training data is lab knowhow / IP. Which, historically, has never been required for any open source release.
- frabcus 2mo ago
  Well, you can't add or alter data in pre-training from just the weights. Which, as I understand it, means you can't fundamentally increase core knowledge or cognitive ability, only what the model likes to do with those. You can only post-train, and you're subject as a result to catastrophic forgetting. To explain simply as far as I can tell (would love to be corrected) the large number of pre-training tokens only works because the documents are randomly ordered. So if you e.g. took a foundation model with open weights, then tried post-training it all the new data since its cut-off period, it would then end up over-trained on that new data, and forget older things.
  - mirekrusin 2mo ago
    As I live next to EPFL, I'll give you example from them: their Meditron-70B model is adapted to the medical domain from Llama-2-70B through continued pretraining. They took weights of Llama-2-70B and continued training on PubMed, medical guidelines and general data. Weights aren't just executable artifact that's consumed by users. Third parties actually use released parameter state as the editable starting point for further training and produce new foundation models from it.
    - frabcus 2mo ago
      Nice example - although it seems it ended up specialised in medical texts, so did indeed ("catastrophically") forget other knowledge?
      - mirekrusin 2mo ago
        No, it didn't. It lost 69.2% -> 67.8% on MMLU while improving medical performance. If you're trying to argue that loss of ~1.4 points is "catastrophic forgetting" (it's not) then look at later work, ie. Me-LLaMA that clearly demonstrates continued pretraining that improved both general MMLU and medical performance. Not sure why you're fixating on catastrophic forgetting. How do you think model training works? Model training is just a sequence of checkpoints: pretraining produces it, training resumes from last, continued pretraining starts from last, supervised fine tuning starts from last, RL/post-training starts from last - it's just a sequence of checkpoints. There isn't some fundamental distinction where original author continuing training from checkpoint X is training but a third party downloading checkpoint X and continuing training from it suddenly isn't. ie. checkpoint doesn't somehow become a different kind of artifact when it's published.
petu 2mo ago
Before we worry about source code, Microsoft doesn't grant me rights to modify/redistribute/sell copy of Windows I have.
mirekrusin 2mo ago
You can't take windows binaries and continue development on them. Model weight release is a snapshot/checkpoint you can take and resume training on new data, producing new model. You don't need original training history to modify it further.
- LtWorf 2mo ago
  > You can't take windows binaries and continue development on them. It's easier than working on weights.
  - mirekrusin 2mo ago
    Reverse engineering binaries is easier than continuing training on weights? You're joking, right? Labs themselves use weight snapshots, that's how you do training, it's normal part of training process.

So windows is open source because the binaries are a lossy compression of the original source?

by LtWorf 2mo ago

So windows is open source because the binaries are a lossy compression of the original source?

Weights are not binary. A model is created at init time, with random values. After that, it is being modified using data. The key point is that the labs modify the models "as weights". That means that weights are the intended / preferred way of modifying a model. Which, coincidentally, matches the definition of source in Apache 2.0. There is no "higher level" place where editing takes place. It all happens in weight space. Through the license you get the same rights as the lab that created it: view, inspect, run, modify, re-release. That's it. That's the only thing a license can grant you. The rest is semantics, misunderstandings, and FUD. A model released under an open source license is open source. Training data is lab knowhow / IP. Which, historically, has never been required for any open source release.

frabcus 2mo ago
Well, you can't add or alter data in pre-training from just the weights. Which, as I understand it, means you can't fundamentally increase core knowledge or cognitive ability, only what the model likes to do with those. You can only post-train, and you're subject as a result to catastrophic forgetting. To explain simply as far as I can tell (would love to be corrected) the large number of pre-training tokens only works because the documents are randomly ordered. So if you e.g. took a foundation model with open weights, then tried post-training it all the new data since its cut-off period, it would then end up over-trained on that new data, and forget older things.
- mirekrusin 2mo ago
  As I live next to EPFL, I'll give you example from them: their Meditron-70B model is adapted to the medical domain from Llama-2-70B through continued pretraining. They took weights of Llama-2-70B and continued training on PubMed, medical guidelines and general data. Weights aren't just executable artifact that's consumed by users. Third parties actually use released parameter state as the editable starting point for further training and produce new foundation models from it.
  - frabcus 2mo ago
    Nice example - although it seems it ended up specialised in medical texts, so did indeed ("catastrophically") forget other knowledge?
    - mirekrusin 2mo ago
      No, it didn't. It lost 69.2% -> 67.8% on MMLU while improving medical performance. If you're trying to argue that loss of ~1.4 points is "catastrophic forgetting" (it's not) then look at later work, ie. Me-LLaMA that clearly demonstrates continued pretraining that improved both general MMLU and medical performance. Not sure why you're fixating on catastrophic forgetting. How do you think model training works? Model training is just a sequence of checkpoints: pretraining produces it, training resumes from last, continued pretraining starts from last, supervised fine tuning starts from last, RL/post-training starts from last - it's just a sequence of checkpoints. There isn't some fundamental distinction where original author continuing training from checkpoint X is training but a third party downloading checkpoint X and continuing training from it suddenly isn't. ie. checkpoint doesn't somehow become a different kind of artifact when it's published.

petu 2mo ago

Before we worry about source code, Microsoft doesn't grant me rights to modify/redistribute/sell copy of Windows I have.

mirekrusin 2mo ago

You can't take windows binaries and continue development on them. Model weight release is a snapshot/checkpoint you can take and resume training on new data, producing new model. You don't need original training history to modify it further.

LtWorf 2mo ago
> You can't take windows binaries and continue development on them. It's easier than working on weights.
- mirekrusin 2mo ago
  Reverse engineering binaries is easier than continuing training on weights? You're joking, right? Labs themselves use weight snapshots, that's how you do training, it's normal part of training process.