3 ms·

I find it really amusing just how different our perspectives on the EU are. You accuse the EU of being neo-liberal, I accuse it of being a micromanaging bureau

I find it really amusing just how different our perspectives on the EU are. You accuse the EU of being neo-liberal, I accuse it of being a micromanaging bureaucratic behemoth heaping endless new regulations on everything including wrapping paper (this is our current outrage of the day), endlessly distrustful towards people who what just to take care of themselves and be left alone. It is hard to believe that we are both describing the same entity. Reminds me of the fable of an elephant and three blind men. Also, when it comes to borders, you probably know that if they were guarded as much as the European population wants, the situation would have been a lot stricter than it is. The EU is more left-wing in this regard than the median European voter.

runarberg 2mo ago
I think this speaks volumes about how far right the Overton window has shifted in Europe, if my run-of-the-mill leftist critique of the EU sounds so novel. I actually blame Brexit for this. Before Brexit being anti-EU for anti-capitalist, anti-imperialist reason was kind of a litmus test for a left wing political candidate. Note this is also true of Iceland. The debate was mostly about nationalism and economy, and the left wing case against the EU was hardly ever mentioned. I also think asking your average European voter is bad faith (and is done by the media all the time). When asked about specific policies, the answers skew left. But when asked about ideology the answers will skew right. And the European media (including national broadcasters) totally abuse this, asking (or rather hiring private polling firms to ask) ”do you like capitalism?“ where the answer will probably be “yes” instead of “Do you want workers or shareholder to have more share of the wealth?”
- inglor_cz 2mo ago
  I'd say that your critique of the EU would have been quite run-of-the-mill in the early 2000s, but nowadays, this corner of the left has mostly shrunk away and became somewhat marginal. As for the voters and their questioning: yeah, people will give inconsistent answers quite often, especially when you pry into the details. But the majority sentiment has been against more immigration for some time now, and that majority tends to become a supermajority when immigration specifically from the Islamic world and Subsaharan Africa is discussed. I don't think there is any way back from that, not in our lifetimes.
  - runarberg 2mo ago
    Note that questions about immigration tend to be quite general and ideology based as well. People are usually asked, “do you support immigration from...” but if you ask them “do you want people from ... to be disproportionately deported” I am pretty sure you‘ll get different support numbers. That aside, the public opinion about immigration are severely tainted, partially because of systemic racism at a government level inside Europe. There is a lot of room for cognitive dissonance if the cops keep arresting black people or Muslims and you know from experience cops have been nothing but kind and never wrong.

runarberg 2mo ago

I think this speaks volumes about how far right the Overton window has shifted in Europe, if my run-of-the-mill leftist critique of the EU sounds so novel. I actually blame Brexit for this. Before Brexit being anti-EU for anti-capitalist, anti-imperialist reason was kind of a litmus test for a left wing political candidate. Note this is also true of Iceland. The debate was mostly about nationalism and economy, and the left wing case against the EU was hardly ever mentioned. I also think asking your average European voter is bad faith (and is done by the media all the time). When asked about specific policies, the answers skew left. But when asked about ideology the answers will skew right. And the European media (including national broadcasters) totally abuse this, asking (or rather hiring private polling firms to ask) ”do you like capitalism?“ where the answer will probably be “yes” instead of “Do you want workers or shareholder to have more share of the wealth?”

inglor_cz 2mo ago
I'd say that your critique of the EU would have been quite run-of-the-mill in the early 2000s, but nowadays, this corner of the left has mostly shrunk away and became somewhat marginal. As for the voters and their questioning: yeah, people will give inconsistent answers quite often, especially when you pry into the details. But the majority sentiment has been against more immigration for some time now, and that majority tends to become a supermajority when immigration specifically from the Islamic world and Subsaharan Africa is discussed. I don't think there is any way back from that, not in our lifetimes.
- runarberg 2mo ago
  Note that questions about immigration tend to be quite general and ideology based as well. People are usually asked, “do you support immigration from...” but if you ask them “do you want people from ... to be disproportionately deported” I am pretty sure you‘ll get different support numbers. That aside, the public opinion about immigration are severely tainted, partially because of systemic racism at a government level inside Europe. There is a lot of room for cognitive dissonance if the cops keep arresting black people or Muslims and you know from experience cops have been nothing but kind and never wrong.