4 ms·

Automation can’t be taxed. Servers consuming electricity in data centers to generate what the next ad someone will click isn’t the same as paying employee salar

by nojvek 1mo ago

Automation can’t be taxed. Servers consuming electricity in data centers to generate what the next ad someone will click isn’t the same as paying employee salary. It’s not taxed. So Trump cuts tax on the rich, and the rich cut out human workers or depress their pay. The debt will have to be reckoned with if the govt ain’t getting their share to build infrastructure. On the other hand US has the highest participation of people who own stock. Unlike China, where the median Chinese doesn’t benefit from growth of state run companies.

triceratops 1mo ago
> Automation can’t be taxed. Sure it can. Take shares in companies. Put them into a sovereign wealth fund.
- cactacea 1mo ago
  Well that just sounds like communism with extra steps.
  - triceratops 1mo ago
    What's your point? I only showed a way to tax automation. The labels are left as an exercise for the reader.
  - idiotsecant 1mo ago
    Ooh spookey
  - AngryData 1mo ago
    That doesn't seem like much of a threat anymore with China as an industrial powerhouse and contries like Norway sitting on state owned industries.
- lazide 1mo ago
  That isn’t a tax by the normal definition, just seizure.
  - scotty79 1mo ago
    Shares aren't a real thing. They are paper invented out of thin air with intent to pull the money out of capital market. There are already many rules about what you have to do be allowed to sell them to the public. Adding a rule that 10% of whatever you print must be put under national democratic control is not inconceivable.
    - lazide 1mo ago
      Shares are proxies for ownership/control. What you are proposing is literally what China does to ensure CCP control of all businesses. Do you really want whoever is in power at the moment to have (even more direct) control over every business in the country? Because that is literally how you do that.
      - scotty79 1mo ago
        > Shares are proxies for ownership/control. Connection between shares and ownership is tenuous at best and rarely exercised. > What you are proposing is literally what China does to ensure CCP control of all businesses. 10% is not control. China is not democratic. Given that, Chinese companies seem to be doing quite well under those conditions. Better than Western ones. > Do you really want whoever is in power at the moment to have (even more direct) control over every business in the country? Do you really want all economic power to be controlled in undemocratic manner rather than democratic? Because that is literally what we have now and society and governments are getting impoverished and companies are getting outcompeted too.
        lazide 1mo ago
        Hardly, it's quite a clear relationship and exercised constantly - if you do the math re: share classes and look at what a corporation actually does. In most large corporations, 10% is often the largest single shareholder and/or bloc. In democratic countries, we pass laws and let that do the talking. If the gov't owns direct shares, whoever is in charge of the gov't is de-facto the 'controller' of them, eh? So no congress, no laws, no vote of the people after they pick whoever is 'in charge'. Doesn't sound very democratic to me?
chradams 1mo ago
Corporate taxes can tax corporate revenue or profits. Stock buybacks and dividends can be regulated or outlawed. If we don't want to force corporations to pay with more equality across ranks, we can take larger portions of revenue or profit and then fund social safety nets and welfare that are targeted at those that corporations choose not to give raises to. There are plenty of systems answers, power just doesn't care, and neither do voter bases.
JumpCrisscross 1mo ago
> Automation can’t be taxed Of course it can. Like, for AI, put a surtax on wattage consumed and use it to extend and expand unemployment insurance.
- teeray 1mo ago
  Tokens are probably the easiest tax target since that is also the unit of billing.
  - zaik 1mo ago
    There will be shenanigans with the definition of a token to save on tax.
  - JumpCrisscross 1mo ago
    Tokens are funny money. Never tax funny money—that be Hollywood accounting.
- idiotsecant 1mo ago
  This also has the second order effect of further incentivising power efficiency
conception 1mo ago
The participation rate in the stock market may be high, but the ownership rate is effectively the top 10% own the entire market.
inigyou 1mo ago
It can change if we create another currency that you have to do labor to get, but that necessitates restrictions on currency trade, which is communism, so it won't happen (and that's good because if communism did happen it would kill 100 million)

by nojvek 1mo ago

triceratops 1mo ago

> Automation can’t be taxed. Sure it can. Take shares in companies. Put them into a sovereign wealth fund.

cactacea 1mo ago
Well that just sounds like communism with extra steps.
- triceratops 1mo ago
  What's your point? I only showed a way to tax automation. The labels are left as an exercise for the reader.
- idiotsecant 1mo ago
  Ooh spookey
- AngryData 1mo ago
  That doesn't seem like much of a threat anymore with China as an industrial powerhouse and contries like Norway sitting on state owned industries.
lazide 1mo ago
That isn’t a tax by the normal definition, just seizure.
- scotty79 1mo ago
  Shares aren't a real thing. They are paper invented out of thin air with intent to pull the money out of capital market. There are already many rules about what you have to do be allowed to sell them to the public. Adding a rule that 10% of whatever you print must be put under national democratic control is not inconceivable.
  - lazide 1mo ago
    Shares are proxies for ownership/control. What you are proposing is literally what China does to ensure CCP control of all businesses. Do you really want whoever is in power at the moment to have (even more direct) control over every business in the country? Because that is literally how you do that.
    - scotty79 1mo ago
      > Shares are proxies for ownership/control. Connection between shares and ownership is tenuous at best and rarely exercised. > What you are proposing is literally what China does to ensure CCP control of all businesses. 10% is not control. China is not democratic. Given that, Chinese companies seem to be doing quite well under those conditions. Better than Western ones. > Do you really want whoever is in power at the moment to have (even more direct) control over every business in the country? Do you really want all economic power to be controlled in undemocratic manner rather than democratic? Because that is literally what we have now and society and governments are getting impoverished and companies are getting outcompeted too.
      - lazide 1mo ago
        Hardly, it's quite a clear relationship and exercised constantly - if you do the math re: share classes and look at what a corporation actually does. In most large corporations, 10% is often the largest single shareholder and/or bloc. In democratic countries, we pass laws and let that do the talking. If the gov't owns direct shares, whoever is in charge of the gov't is de-facto the 'controller' of them, eh? So no congress, no laws, no vote of the people after they pick whoever is 'in charge'. Doesn't sound very democratic to me?

chradams 1mo ago

Corporate taxes can tax corporate revenue or profits. Stock buybacks and dividends can be regulated or outlawed. If we don't want to force corporations to pay with more equality across ranks, we can take larger portions of revenue or profit and then fund social safety nets and welfare that are targeted at those that corporations choose not to give raises to. There are plenty of systems answers, power just doesn't care, and neither do voter bases.

JumpCrisscross 1mo ago

> Automation can’t be taxed Of course it can. Like, for AI, put a surtax on wattage consumed and use it to extend and expand unemployment insurance.

teeray 1mo ago
Tokens are probably the easiest tax target since that is also the unit of billing.
- zaik 1mo ago
  There will be shenanigans with the definition of a token to save on tax.
- JumpCrisscross 1mo ago
  Tokens are funny money. Never tax funny money—that be Hollywood accounting.
idiotsecant 1mo ago
This also has the second order effect of further incentivising power efficiency

conception 1mo ago

The participation rate in the stock market may be high, but the ownership rate is effectively the top 10% own the entire market.

inigyou 1mo ago

It can change if we create another currency that you have to do labor to get, but that necessitates restrictions on currency trade, which is communism, so it won't happen (and that's good because if communism did happen it would kill 100 million)