3 ms·

i before e except after c or when sounded as 'a' as in neighbor or weigh or just because fuck you, it's English https://www.espressoenglish.net/i-before-e-ex

i before e except after c or when sounded as 'a' as in neighbor or weigh or just because fuck you, it's English https://www.espressoenglish.net/i-before-e-except-after-c-rule-and-exceptions/ https://www.espressoenglish.net/i-before-e-except-after-c-ru...

cj 1mo ago
At least we don’t gender our nouns! Learning German, I could not memorize correct usage of der/die/das for the life of me
- elevation 1mo ago
  Best to learn these things the way babies do -- by listening to the speech of others and copying it, and letting a native correct you. Eventually the correct conjugations will feel natural.
  - tshaddox 1mo ago
    In Spanish, native speakers typically learn (implicitly) or memorize (explicitly) the gendered article along with the noun, so instead of thinking "hmm, let me remember the gender of mapa" they'll just have that noun stored internally as "el mapa". It's still a matter of memorization (at least for words whose gender violates the typically spelling heuristics), but it's not really conceived of as memorizing the word and then separately memorizing its gender. And of course, there will always be rare or specialized terms that a native speaker might recognize but confidently know the gender. This is especially true for the small set of nouns whose gender varies by region or context.
    - pessimizer 1mo ago
      Except in Spanish, gender is pretty easily determined from the word ending 99.9% of the time unless it's a Greek neuter, and there are only a few of those. In French, it's common for people not to remember the gender of uncommon words. IIRC, there is or was a radio program in France that would call up random people and offer them a prize if they could guess the genders of a list of 10 words correctly.
      - tshaddox 1mo ago
        > in Spanish, gender is pretty easily determined from the word ending 99.9% of the time unless it's a Greek neuter, and there are only a few of those. Isn't that 99.9% referring to the reliability of spelling heuristics for the words that match a heuristic? For example, the -o and -a spelling heuristic reliably indicates gender something like 99+% of the time, but only about two thirds of Spanish nouns end in -o or -a. There are a few other suffixes with string gender indication, but even then I think you can only account for like 75% of Spanish nouns.
        pessimizer 1mo ago
        I'm strenuously disagreeing with the 75%, especially in terms of usage. Almost all nouns that end in -a (unless they're Greek neuters), -ión, -umbre, or -dad are feminine. Otherwise, they're masculine. There are plenty of exceptions, but 1/1000 words sounds about right to me. edit: my point was that French is far more chaotic than that, and it does cause mistakes. Goes with the general observation that French is easy enough to read, but hard to write.
        tshaddox 1mo ago
        > I'm strenuously disagreeing with the 75%, especially in terms of usage. Oh for sure. I wasn't weighting by usage.
      - pcrh 1mo ago
        You remind me that France had (maybe still does?) national dictation competitions (championnat national de dictées). Much of French orthography is silent, so can be a real challenge!
AnotherGoodName 1mo ago
There's a movie "Weird Science" which i always appreciated if only for breaking the rule twice in two words.
- oxfeed65261 1mo ago
  i before e except after c or when sounded like a as in neighbor or weigh. But there are exceptions. English language orthography is a weird science.
gnatman 1mo ago
my third grade teacher taught us: >i before e except after c >or when sounded as 'a' as in neighbor or weigh >or when it’s WEIRD
pessimizer 1mo ago
"I before E except after C, unless it’s my feisty neighbor Keith who lifts weights. Weird.” https://languagemagazine.com/2023/01/03/can-teaching-english-like-spanish-close-the-achievement-gap/ https://languagemagazine.com/2023/01/03/can-teaching-english...
deleted 1mo ago
[deleted]
kstrauser 1mo ago
I lost a school spelling bee because I couldn’t remember if my word used ie or ei. I panicked and used “i before e”, leading to me appropriately failing to spell “forfeit”. You’re so right: Fuck you, it’s English. Good luck memorizing all the exceptions!
bloak 1mo ago
"I before E except after C, but only when the sound is E" is the version I've heard, so "weird" (and "weir") are not exceptions. (In standard British English the vowel in "weird" is /ɪə/, not /iː/.)

cj 1mo ago

At least we don’t gender our nouns! Learning German, I could not memorize correct usage of der/die/das for the life of me

elevation 1mo ago
Best to learn these things the way babies do -- by listening to the speech of others and copying it, and letting a native correct you. Eventually the correct conjugations will feel natural.
- tshaddox 1mo ago
  In Spanish, native speakers typically learn (implicitly) or memorize (explicitly) the gendered article along with the noun, so instead of thinking "hmm, let me remember the gender of mapa" they'll just have that noun stored internally as "el mapa". It's still a matter of memorization (at least for words whose gender violates the typically spelling heuristics), but it's not really conceived of as memorizing the word and then separately memorizing its gender. And of course, there will always be rare or specialized terms that a native speaker might recognize but confidently know the gender. This is especially true for the small set of nouns whose gender varies by region or context.
  - pessimizer 1mo ago
    Except in Spanish, gender is pretty easily determined from the word ending 99.9% of the time unless it's a Greek neuter, and there are only a few of those. In French, it's common for people not to remember the gender of uncommon words. IIRC, there is or was a radio program in France that would call up random people and offer them a prize if they could guess the genders of a list of 10 words correctly.
    - tshaddox 1mo ago
      > in Spanish, gender is pretty easily determined from the word ending 99.9% of the time unless it's a Greek neuter, and there are only a few of those. Isn't that 99.9% referring to the reliability of spelling heuristics for the words that match a heuristic? For example, the -o and -a spelling heuristic reliably indicates gender something like 99+% of the time, but only about two thirds of Spanish nouns end in -o or -a. There are a few other suffixes with string gender indication, but even then I think you can only account for like 75% of Spanish nouns.
      - pessimizer 1mo ago
        I'm strenuously disagreeing with the 75%, especially in terms of usage. Almost all nouns that end in -a (unless they're Greek neuters), -ión, -umbre, or -dad are feminine. Otherwise, they're masculine. There are plenty of exceptions, but 1/1000 words sounds about right to me. edit: my point was that French is far more chaotic than that, and it does cause mistakes. Goes with the general observation that French is easy enough to read, but hard to write.
        tshaddox 1mo ago
        > I'm strenuously disagreeing with the 75%, especially in terms of usage. Oh for sure. I wasn't weighting by usage.
    - pcrh 1mo ago
      You remind me that France had (maybe still does?) national dictation competitions (championnat national de dictées). Much of French orthography is silent, so can be a real challenge!

AnotherGoodName 1mo ago

There's a movie "Weird Science" which i always appreciated if only for breaking the rule twice in two words.

oxfeed65261 1mo ago
i before e except after c or when sounded like a as in neighbor or weigh. But there are exceptions. English language orthography is a weird science.

gnatman 1mo ago

my third grade teacher taught us: >i before e except after c >or when sounded as 'a' as in neighbor or weigh >or when it’s WEIRD

pessimizer 1mo ago

"I before E except after C, unless it’s my feisty neighbor Keith who lifts weights. Weird.” https://languagemagazine.com/2023/01/03/can-teaching-english-like-spanish-close-the-achievement-gap/ https://languagemagazine.com/2023/01/03/can-teaching-english...

deleted 1mo ago

[deleted]

kstrauser 1mo ago

I lost a school spelling bee because I couldn’t remember if my word used ie or ei. I panicked and used “i before e”, leading to me appropriately failing to spell “forfeit”. You’re so right: Fuck you, it’s English. Good luck memorizing all the exceptions!

bloak 1mo ago

"I before E except after C, but only when the sound is E" is the version I've heard, so "weird" (and "weir") are not exceptions. (In standard British English the vowel in "weird" is /ɪə/, not /iː/.)