3 ms·

Pretty insane, expect data center to be data center + coal power plant soon, why bother with generators or the pesky local grid.

cucumber3732842 1mo ago
If coal doesn't pencil out economically for the grid it still likely won't pencil out economically for data centers even if you remove some of the compliance stuff.
- techpression 1mo ago
  Fair enough, I don't know if it matters short term for massive buildouts, but I'm sure whatever comes out of this is not a benefit for anyone except the owners.
adamgordonbell 1mo ago
Somebody mentioned that a solar panel field to power a data center requires a lot of impact assessment paper work and approvals. Whereas natural gas generators do not. Hence the runs on gas turbines, while solar panels are plentiful. ( Although I'd guess the consistency of power is a bigger issue. ) Running existing coal is now supposedly more expensive then putting in new wind or solar ... all else being equal.
- techpression 1mo ago
  They should definitely use wind power, since you could use the fans to cool the computers at the same time! I for one would love a nice HTTP status in the form of "due to the weather being nice and calm outside, AI services are down, go outside and enjoy the day"
  - Muromec 1mo ago
    Imposing rules like that is what we are supposed to use religion for.
- jaapz 1mo ago
  That might be a reason, but probably more relevant is the fact that when you want solar to provide all power for a data center, you need a lot of buffering capacity (batteries). And then you also need a back up for when the sun doesn't shine... Which is probably a gas generator. Easier to just install a gas generator then
  - inigyou 1mo ago
    AI training, not inference, seems like it would actually be a good application for a solar powered DC because you could just checkpoint and pause when it gets cloudy. It might end up worth it for the free electricity.
    - rogerrogerr 1mo ago
      If you think you are building God, and every second counts, interruptions cost you way more than measly electricity.
    - Kubuxu 1mo ago
      It doesn’t make sense to do that, hardware deprecates in 5years (it used to be 3) and is currently very expensive. So by using this approach you double the average cost of hardware per unit of compute completed. If there wasn’t such a hardware squeeze and electricity was a higher percentage of the cost, yes, it would have made sense.
  - rangestransform 1mo ago
    If we didn’t have stupid regulatory bullshit and protectionism, it would be cheaper to run a data center on solar and batteries in bumfuck Nevada
andsoitis 1mo ago
> expect data center to be data center + coal power plant soon Why do you think that’s likely?
- inigyou 1mo ago
  Because coal is the cheapest source of electricity that isn't banned in the USA.
  - tialaramex 1mo ago
    Are you looking at a textbook from the 1990s or something? I'm sure that was true at some point, but it hasn't been true for a long time.
    - toast0 1mo ago
      It seems likely to happen again. Many US utility coal fired power plants are scheduled for retirement and will not be replaced with new coal facilities. [1] China is building lots of new coal generation, but also lots of new solar so coal use will be reduced during daylight (not the way a coal plant wants to run, but they'll adapt) Give it a few more years and data centers with onsite coal will look like a genius cost cutting idea. Never mind all the pollution. [1] https://ieefa.org/resources/nowhere-go-down-us-coal-capacity-generation https://ieefa.org/resources/nowhere-go-down-us-coal-capacity...
      - abenga 1mo ago
        The hope is in a few more years, we'll not have a cult hell bent on accelerating the apocalypse in charge of the largest economy in the world, or are you guys planning something different?
      - tialaramex 1mo ago
        > Give it a few more years and data centers with onsite coal will look like a genius cost cutting idea. Never mind all the pollution. The numbers keep getting worse. Building "onsite coal" is more expensive than solar and storage, but now it needs more expensive fuel and you need to dispose of the toxic coal ash which won't be free either.
llm_nerd 1mo ago
A number of data centres have been proposed in Alberta, including a giant Meta one. Alberta has a derelict, obsolete power grid that can't even serve the current population, so you might wonder how that is possible. They're coupling them with dedicated natural gas power plants. Meta finally stopped the green charade and simply dropped out of RE100, as they're all just going full speed ahead on destroying the planet.

cucumber3732842 1mo ago

If coal doesn't pencil out economically for the grid it still likely won't pencil out economically for data centers even if you remove some of the compliance stuff.

techpression 1mo ago
Fair enough, I don't know if it matters short term for massive buildouts, but I'm sure whatever comes out of this is not a benefit for anyone except the owners.

adamgordonbell 1mo ago

Somebody mentioned that a solar panel field to power a data center requires a lot of impact assessment paper work and approvals. Whereas natural gas generators do not. Hence the runs on gas turbines, while solar panels are plentiful. ( Although I'd guess the consistency of power is a bigger issue. ) Running existing coal is now supposedly more expensive then putting in new wind or solar ... all else being equal.

techpression 1mo ago
They should definitely use wind power, since you could use the fans to cool the computers at the same time! I for one would love a nice HTTP status in the form of "due to the weather being nice and calm outside, AI services are down, go outside and enjoy the day"
- Muromec 1mo ago
  Imposing rules like that is what we are supposed to use religion for.
jaapz 1mo ago
That might be a reason, but probably more relevant is the fact that when you want solar to provide all power for a data center, you need a lot of buffering capacity (batteries). And then you also need a back up for when the sun doesn't shine... Which is probably a gas generator. Easier to just install a gas generator then
- inigyou 1mo ago
  AI training, not inference, seems like it would actually be a good application for a solar powered DC because you could just checkpoint and pause when it gets cloudy. It might end up worth it for the free electricity.
  - rogerrogerr 1mo ago
    If you think you are building God, and every second counts, interruptions cost you way more than measly electricity.
  - Kubuxu 1mo ago
    It doesn’t make sense to do that, hardware deprecates in 5years (it used to be 3) and is currently very expensive. So by using this approach you double the average cost of hardware per unit of compute completed. If there wasn’t such a hardware squeeze and electricity was a higher percentage of the cost, yes, it would have made sense.
- rangestransform 1mo ago
  If we didn’t have stupid regulatory bullshit and protectionism, it would be cheaper to run a data center on solar and batteries in bumfuck Nevada

andsoitis 1mo ago

> expect data center to be data center + coal power plant soon Why do you think that’s likely?

inigyou 1mo ago
Because coal is the cheapest source of electricity that isn't banned in the USA.
- tialaramex 1mo ago
  Are you looking at a textbook from the 1990s or something? I'm sure that was true at some point, but it hasn't been true for a long time.
  - toast0 1mo ago
    It seems likely to happen again. Many US utility coal fired power plants are scheduled for retirement and will not be replaced with new coal facilities. [1] China is building lots of new coal generation, but also lots of new solar so coal use will be reduced during daylight (not the way a coal plant wants to run, but they'll adapt) Give it a few more years and data centers with onsite coal will look like a genius cost cutting idea. Never mind all the pollution. [1] https://ieefa.org/resources/nowhere-go-down-us-coal-capacity-generation https://ieefa.org/resources/nowhere-go-down-us-coal-capacity...
    - abenga 1mo ago
      The hope is in a few more years, we'll not have a cult hell bent on accelerating the apocalypse in charge of the largest economy in the world, or are you guys planning something different?
    - tialaramex 1mo ago
      > Give it a few more years and data centers with onsite coal will look like a genius cost cutting idea. Never mind all the pollution. The numbers keep getting worse. Building "onsite coal" is more expensive than solar and storage, but now it needs more expensive fuel and you need to dispose of the toxic coal ash which won't be free either.

llm_nerd 1mo ago

A number of data centres have been proposed in Alberta, including a giant Meta one. Alberta has a derelict, obsolete power grid that can't even serve the current population, so you might wonder how that is possible. They're coupling them with dedicated natural gas power plants. Meta finally stopped the green charade and simply dropped out of RE100, as they're all just going full speed ahead on destroying the planet.