4 ms·

Which is to say, the original authors didn't care and were just writing latinesque gibberish that sounded cool. One of the critically important things to remem

by ajross 1mo ago

Which is to say, the original authors didn't care and were just writing latinesque gibberish that sounded cool. One of the critically important things to remember about 40k lore is that the game was originally a joke. Their "real" game was Warhammer (the game to be later called "Warhammer Fantasy"). Originally it was just "Let's put space opera tropes onto a game board and have them fight D&D monsters". Then they shoe-horned the chaos stuff in, then had a (presumably drunken) exercise in lore writing where they "invented" "Grimdark" by essentially turning the Despair knob up to 11. And then it turned out to be popular, and it was time to start trying to write real stories on top of the mess. And... people loved it. Including a lot of people for whom the comically ridiculous Grimdark stuff turned into a kind of authoritarian wish fulfillment, which wasn't great. But you have to remember it was all a joke to begin with.

throaway198521 1mo ago
It was more than just a joke. It was a satire on England and 1980's society. The "Imperium," which is led by the possibly-dead body of a entombed demi-god, sustains its control over the galaxy with a mix of intense faith, authoritarianism, and a massive space navy with marine shock troops. That's England! The Imperium is the British Empire. The dead-God Emperor is Jesus and the Imperial Cult is the COE. The Imperial Navy is the British Navy and the Space Marines (who in the older versions were just common criminals, not super-soldiers), are the British Naval Marines. One of the old slurs against Christians was that they followed a "corpse-god." They say the same thing in 40K. Plus, all the rampant materialism, corruption, stratification, militarism, promoted and encouraged by the Imperium. All straight out of 1980's society.
- ajross 1mo ago
  > It was more than just a joke. It was a satire on England and 1980's society. Well... while I buy that to some extent, I think the point is oversold. While there are absolutely satirical aspects to the early game[1], they're mostly limited to puns. What (original) 40k is absolutely not is subtle highbrow comedy. It's a bunch of drunk nerds guffawing about whatever they thought was funny in the moment. [1] Which again, didn't actually include a lot of the later lore. Like, the emperor in the 1e rules was entombed but strongly implied to be actively leading the empire. Likewise the original conception seems a lot closer to dystopian sci fi than "1980's society" to me.
  - throaway198521 1mo ago
    It's dystopian sci-fi based on England though. The later lore is irrelevant, that's when it started turning into crap, especially around the later 2000s. Here's the original from 1987's Rogue Trader: ""It is the 41st Millennium. For more than a hundred centuries The Emperor has sat immobile on the Golden Throne of Earth. He is the Master of Mankind by the will of the gods, and master of a million worlds by the might of his inexhaustible armies. He is a rotting carcass writhing invisibly with power from the Dark Age of Technology. He is the Carrion Lord of the vast Imperium of Man for whom a thousand souls are sacrificed every day, so that he may never truly die." Definitely a Jesus figure. And a pretty subtly done one.
    - ajross 1mo ago
      Yeah, oversold to me, sorry. Just to start with: "definitely" and "subtly done" are at odds with each other. You can't be both. Klaatu is "definitely" a Jesus analog. The Emperor... meh. It's strained, precisely because GW never really went there: fine, he's Jesus, but then what represents the Gospels? The Old Testamanet? The Emperor is only "Jesus" insofar as that's how "Jesus" looks to a 20th century disaffected nerdy atheist. Well... OK I guess? Also... the 19th century British Empire is... kinda not at all viewed as a theocratic totalitarian autocracy consumed by cult-like worship of a dead god. Like, at all? It was a bourgeois, wealth-focused and extremely secular colonizer power driven by very worldly desires and a vaguely racist idea of How Things Should Be. And there's a lot of valuable source material for fiction there![1] And... GW didn't really do any of it, and almost none of that until much later. [1] c.f. like 80% of Cyberpunk
      - throaway198521 1mo ago
        Saying somethings subtly done but "definitely," identified as a certain character is in no way a contradiction lol. It just means its subtly done. 40k is not a satire of "Jesus," its a satire of Jesus-obsessed materialist Britain. How can you say that 19th century Britain wasn't obsessed with worshipping a dead god? They worshipped Jesus, put him into every part of everyday life, said that if you didnt worship him you'd end up in hell being tortured forever, etc etc... There doesn't need to be an entire 1:1 translation of the Bible into 40k for it to be a satire. A carrion-God Emperor of (white) Mankind who is "apparently" watching out for all of us, at all times, and gives us manifest destiny to rule all other races? That's the modern political Euro conception of Jesus, ensconced the same way into an Imperial state. The British Empire was extremely secular? You might want to brush up on your history. The COE (Britain's State religion) was not friendly to other religions inside the Empire. Especially at home. The British Empire was a devout place. You couldn't own property as a non-Anglican Christian until 1846! And they said their Jesus-God was responsible for everything, everywhere, at all times. Outside of Egypt and Ethiopia, Christianity exists in Africa why exactly? India they found it was too difficult to break their faith, so it wasn't worth the bother when they could extract resources anyways. But Africa is heavily Christian for no reason other than British missions. Bourgeois & wealth-focused is exactly how the Imperium is set up. They don't care about anything other than control and wealth being sent back to Terra. That's part of the satire too.
- eli_gottlieb 1mo ago
  > One of the old slurs against Christians was that they followed a "corpse-god." They say the same thing in 40K. Seriously? Wow. Maybe it's because I'm American, but I can't imagine actually saying that to someone. I'd sorta expect them to throw hands if I talked like that about Jesus. And I'm an entirely secular, non-Christian atheist living among many other such people!
  - Symbiote 1mo ago
    Some friends, and possibly a local metal bar, were referring to Easter as Zombie Jesus Day. Why would atheists be offended?
    - AngryData 1mo ago
      Although he should really be considered a Lich because he raised himself from the dead, not by some outside force.
    - eli_gottlieb 1mo ago
      Well obviously nobody's gonna be offended at the metal bar. That's the point of a metal bar!
  - saithound 1mo ago
    > Maybe it's because I'm American, but I can't imagine actually saying that to someone. I'd sorta expect them to throw hands if I talked like that about Jesus. I mean, that's exactly what a "slur" is. They are not coined with the recipient's comfort in mind, and saying them can sometimes provoke exactly the sort of fight you imagine. But yes, violent consequences ought to be particularly unsurprising to an American, since the US is, by Western standards, an exceptionally violent country. [1] [1] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9535176/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9535176/ (table 2)
  - OoooooooO 1mo ago
    You can't hurt fantasy stories and their fantasy characters.
  - 1mo ago

by ajross 1mo ago

throaway198521 1mo ago

It was more than just a joke. It was a satire on England and 1980's society. The "Imperium," which is led by the possibly-dead body of a entombed demi-god, sustains its control over the galaxy with a mix of intense faith, authoritarianism, and a massive space navy with marine shock troops. That's England! The Imperium is the British Empire. The dead-God Emperor is Jesus and the Imperial Cult is the COE. The Imperial Navy is the British Navy and the Space Marines (who in the older versions were just common criminals, not super-soldiers), are the British Naval Marines. One of the old slurs against Christians was that they followed a "corpse-god." They say the same thing in 40K. Plus, all the rampant materialism, corruption, stratification, militarism, promoted and encouraged by the Imperium. All straight out of 1980's society.

ajross 1mo ago
> It was more than just a joke. It was a satire on England and 1980's society. Well... while I buy that to some extent, I think the point is oversold. While there are absolutely satirical aspects to the early game[1], they're mostly limited to puns. What (original) 40k is absolutely not is subtle highbrow comedy. It's a bunch of drunk nerds guffawing about whatever they thought was funny in the moment. [1] Which again, didn't actually include a lot of the later lore. Like, the emperor in the 1e rules was entombed but strongly implied to be actively leading the empire. Likewise the original conception seems a lot closer to dystopian sci fi than "1980's society" to me.
- throaway198521 1mo ago
  It's dystopian sci-fi based on England though. The later lore is irrelevant, that's when it started turning into crap, especially around the later 2000s. Here's the original from 1987's Rogue Trader: ""It is the 41st Millennium. For more than a hundred centuries The Emperor has sat immobile on the Golden Throne of Earth. He is the Master of Mankind by the will of the gods, and master of a million worlds by the might of his inexhaustible armies. He is a rotting carcass writhing invisibly with power from the Dark Age of Technology. He is the Carrion Lord of the vast Imperium of Man for whom a thousand souls are sacrificed every day, so that he may never truly die." Definitely a Jesus figure. And a pretty subtly done one.
  - ajross 1mo ago
    Yeah, oversold to me, sorry. Just to start with: "definitely" and "subtly done" are at odds with each other. You can't be both. Klaatu is "definitely" a Jesus analog. The Emperor... meh. It's strained, precisely because GW never really went there: fine, he's Jesus, but then what represents the Gospels? The Old Testamanet? The Emperor is only "Jesus" insofar as that's how "Jesus" looks to a 20th century disaffected nerdy atheist. Well... OK I guess? Also... the 19th century British Empire is... kinda not at all viewed as a theocratic totalitarian autocracy consumed by cult-like worship of a dead god. Like, at all? It was a bourgeois, wealth-focused and extremely secular colonizer power driven by very worldly desires and a vaguely racist idea of How Things Should Be. And there's a lot of valuable source material for fiction there![1] And... GW didn't really do any of it, and almost none of that until much later. [1] c.f. like 80% of Cyberpunk
    - throaway198521 1mo ago
      Saying somethings subtly done but "definitely," identified as a certain character is in no way a contradiction lol. It just means its subtly done. 40k is not a satire of "Jesus," its a satire of Jesus-obsessed materialist Britain. How can you say that 19th century Britain wasn't obsessed with worshipping a dead god? They worshipped Jesus, put him into every part of everyday life, said that if you didnt worship him you'd end up in hell being tortured forever, etc etc... There doesn't need to be an entire 1:1 translation of the Bible into 40k for it to be a satire. A carrion-God Emperor of (white) Mankind who is "apparently" watching out for all of us, at all times, and gives us manifest destiny to rule all other races? That's the modern political Euro conception of Jesus, ensconced the same way into an Imperial state. The British Empire was extremely secular? You might want to brush up on your history. The COE (Britain's State religion) was not friendly to other religions inside the Empire. Especially at home. The British Empire was a devout place. You couldn't own property as a non-Anglican Christian until 1846! And they said their Jesus-God was responsible for everything, everywhere, at all times. Outside of Egypt and Ethiopia, Christianity exists in Africa why exactly? India they found it was too difficult to break their faith, so it wasn't worth the bother when they could extract resources anyways. But Africa is heavily Christian for no reason other than British missions. Bourgeois & wealth-focused is exactly how the Imperium is set up. They don't care about anything other than control and wealth being sent back to Terra. That's part of the satire too.
eli_gottlieb 1mo ago
> One of the old slurs against Christians was that they followed a "corpse-god." They say the same thing in 40K. Seriously? Wow. Maybe it's because I'm American, but I can't imagine actually saying that to someone. I'd sorta expect them to throw hands if I talked like that about Jesus. And I'm an entirely secular, non-Christian atheist living among many other such people!
- Symbiote 1mo ago
  Some friends, and possibly a local metal bar, were referring to Easter as Zombie Jesus Day. Why would atheists be offended?
  - AngryData 1mo ago
    Although he should really be considered a Lich because he raised himself from the dead, not by some outside force.
  - eli_gottlieb 1mo ago
    Well obviously nobody's gonna be offended at the metal bar. That's the point of a metal bar!
- saithound 1mo ago
  > Maybe it's because I'm American, but I can't imagine actually saying that to someone. I'd sorta expect them to throw hands if I talked like that about Jesus. I mean, that's exactly what a "slur" is. They are not coined with the recipient's comfort in mind, and saying them can sometimes provoke exactly the sort of fight you imagine. But yes, violent consequences ought to be particularly unsurprising to an American, since the US is, by Western standards, an exceptionally violent country. [1] [1] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9535176/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9535176/ (table 2)
- OoooooooO 1mo ago
  You can't hurt fantasy stories and their fantasy characters.
- 1mo ago