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> The bigger cost was the typing. Every time I wanted to build something, I could see the code in my head. I just couldn’t type it out fast enough. Facts. For

> The bigger cost was the typing. Every time I wanted to build something, I could see the code in my head. I just couldn’t type it out fast enough. Facts. For me the bigger the gap between what i saw in my head and the speed with which my fingers could physically make it a reality the more stress i would feel and some marathon coding sessions would end w my back all messed up just from the tension

kelseyfrog 1mo ago
I've heard this reported, but it's hard to imagine it. The biggest bottleneck for me has always been hammock time[1]. 1. https://github.com/matthiasn/talk-transcripts/blob/master/Hickey_Rich/HammockDrivenDev.md https://github.com/matthiasn/talk-transcripts/blob/master/Hi...
- keeda 1mo ago
  Yes, but once you have the solution crystalized in your head do you not feel some frustration in not getting it implemented as soon as possible? I often found myself impatient in getting something I knew would work to actually work, and it was always due to the tiresome fractal of complexities that any non-trivial task involves, like looking up an API or working around the quirks of some dependency. On a related note, this is also why I find AI-assisted coding so efficient: I have the code visualized in my head to a decent level of detail, and so reviewing the AI's output is a breeze; it's like doing a semantic diff of what I had visualized and what it produced, and so any issues are glaring and easy to spot.
  - kelseyfrog 1mo ago
    I simply type it out equanimously. The attachment to speed is neither here nor there. It will end up on the screen in due time.
    - keeda 1mo ago
      I think you're talking about the flow state, which makes sense. I've said it before there was an aspect to programming that was almost meditative, that zone where ideas flow easily into code. I do miss that experience. (I also suspect the lack of it contributes to the burnout reported by heavy AI coders.) Unfortunately, most modern software development is atrocious, full of distractions and incidental complexity and tangential issues that are not conducive to staying in the flow. Latent bugs and dependency quirks and environment issues that force you into some irrelevant sidequest were the most frustrating. Like, this video is the prefect analogy for modern software development: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbSehcT19u0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbSehcT19u0 I do NOT miss that experience and I'm glad to let the agents take care of it.
    - cortesoft 1mo ago
      Sure, if I had enough time. But I have more software I want to write than I have time, between my day job, my kids and family, chores, other hobbies, etc. I had so many projects I wanted to do, but when I thought about all of the work that went into each one, I realized I didn't have time to do them and they were pushed to the back burner. These last few months I have been able to get to so many of those back burner projects because I don't need nearly as much time anymore.
  - queenkjuul 1mo ago
    > Yes, but once you have the solution crystalized in your head do you not feel some frustration in not getting it implemented as soon as possible? For me, honestly, no. Once i have the solution i have the solution. The only people that care about how fast it gets published are the project managers at work, certainly not me. And besides, writing it all out and confirming it all along the way seems helpful to me, it ensures i understood everything correctly and sometimes inspires new ideas as well
ilkkao 1mo ago
Nice to hear others are feeling this too. I started using typing websites to improve my speed a few months ago. More recently I've noticed that I'm starting to make lots of typos and use sloppy language in general because AI still understands me. That can't be healthy in the long term.
- iamflimflam1 1mo ago
  I got this way with google (when it was still good) - what nonsense can I type and still get the right result - 99% of the time it would work.
unlimit 1mo ago
Yay!!! There are people like me in this world. :-)
beej71 1mo ago
Disclaimer: I'm an older dev out of the game. I could definitely see the bigger picture faster than I could type it (except for challenging tasks), but that typing time was also synergistic thinking time. Not unfrequently, I'd find a better design while writing the code. Even if it didn't make it into that codebase, it could be filed away for future reference. Edit: I recall reading somewhere that John Carmack doesn't care about which editor he uses because typing was never the bottleneck. Admittedly, he worked on some really difficult problems.
- jghn 1mo ago
  This is part of what I don't understand about the new narrative. I agree in principle that yes, the mechanical act of writing code was always the real bottleneck. But people act like all you have to do is carefully plan everything out up front, double check it at the end, and bob's your uncle. I always found that the act of chugging the code helped to refine my thoughts along the way, including the big picture of it all. I've adapted in that I still have agents do most of the heavy lifting of code writing. But it still requires me to be invested in the details, which can't happen at the scale people discuss when they're talking about full on agentic development.
  - bossyTeacher 1mo ago
    >But people act like all you have to do is carefully plan everything out up front, double check it at the end, and bob's your uncle. It's a coping mechanism. Goal shifting to protect yourself.
  - queenkjuul 1mo ago
    I can't even count how often i think i have everything planned out and then halfway through implementation realizing a much better way, or some case i didn't consider, or a different way to eliminate the problem, etc. This is true both when I'm writing code myself and when I'm driving Claude. I see coworkers just taking the first concept from Claude and running with it and you can really tell that skipping the thinking that goes on during the implementation step really has drastic bad effects on the final code.
bluegatty 1mo ago
Typing it was never the work. The research, the understanding, the planning, the design, all of it's iterations, the testing, all of it's iterations, debugging etc. 'I see the code and need to get it down' is a key thing obviously but a smaller part. With better abstractions, we'll be putting 'architectural ideas' in our head, instead of algorithmic.

kelseyfrog 1mo ago

I've heard this reported, but it's hard to imagine it. The biggest bottleneck for me has always been hammock time[1]. 1. https://github.com/matthiasn/talk-transcripts/blob/master/Hickey_Rich/HammockDrivenDev.md https://github.com/matthiasn/talk-transcripts/blob/master/Hi...

keeda 1mo ago
Yes, but once you have the solution crystalized in your head do you not feel some frustration in not getting it implemented as soon as possible? I often found myself impatient in getting something I knew would work to actually work, and it was always due to the tiresome fractal of complexities that any non-trivial task involves, like looking up an API or working around the quirks of some dependency. On a related note, this is also why I find AI-assisted coding so efficient: I have the code visualized in my head to a decent level of detail, and so reviewing the AI's output is a breeze; it's like doing a semantic diff of what I had visualized and what it produced, and so any issues are glaring and easy to spot.
- kelseyfrog 1mo ago
  I simply type it out equanimously. The attachment to speed is neither here nor there. It will end up on the screen in due time.
  - keeda 1mo ago
    I think you're talking about the flow state, which makes sense. I've said it before there was an aspect to programming that was almost meditative, that zone where ideas flow easily into code. I do miss that experience. (I also suspect the lack of it contributes to the burnout reported by heavy AI coders.) Unfortunately, most modern software development is atrocious, full of distractions and incidental complexity and tangential issues that are not conducive to staying in the flow. Latent bugs and dependency quirks and environment issues that force you into some irrelevant sidequest were the most frustrating. Like, this video is the prefect analogy for modern software development: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbSehcT19u0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbSehcT19u0 I do NOT miss that experience and I'm glad to let the agents take care of it.
  - cortesoft 1mo ago
    Sure, if I had enough time. But I have more software I want to write than I have time, between my day job, my kids and family, chores, other hobbies, etc. I had so many projects I wanted to do, but when I thought about all of the work that went into each one, I realized I didn't have time to do them and they were pushed to the back burner. These last few months I have been able to get to so many of those back burner projects because I don't need nearly as much time anymore.
- queenkjuul 1mo ago
  > Yes, but once you have the solution crystalized in your head do you not feel some frustration in not getting it implemented as soon as possible? For me, honestly, no. Once i have the solution i have the solution. The only people that care about how fast it gets published are the project managers at work, certainly not me. And besides, writing it all out and confirming it all along the way seems helpful to me, it ensures i understood everything correctly and sometimes inspires new ideas as well

ilkkao 1mo ago

Nice to hear others are feeling this too. I started using typing websites to improve my speed a few months ago. More recently I've noticed that I'm starting to make lots of typos and use sloppy language in general because AI still understands me. That can't be healthy in the long term.

iamflimflam1 1mo ago
I got this way with google (when it was still good) - what nonsense can I type and still get the right result - 99% of the time it would work.

unlimit 1mo ago

Yay!!! There are people like me in this world. :-)

beej71 1mo ago

Disclaimer: I'm an older dev out of the game. I could definitely see the bigger picture faster than I could type it (except for challenging tasks), but that typing time was also synergistic thinking time. Not unfrequently, I'd find a better design while writing the code. Even if it didn't make it into that codebase, it could be filed away for future reference. Edit: I recall reading somewhere that John Carmack doesn't care about which editor he uses because typing was never the bottleneck. Admittedly, he worked on some really difficult problems.

jghn 1mo ago
This is part of what I don't understand about the new narrative. I agree in principle that yes, the mechanical act of writing code was always the real bottleneck. But people act like all you have to do is carefully plan everything out up front, double check it at the end, and bob's your uncle. I always found that the act of chugging the code helped to refine my thoughts along the way, including the big picture of it all. I've adapted in that I still have agents do most of the heavy lifting of code writing. But it still requires me to be invested in the details, which can't happen at the scale people discuss when they're talking about full on agentic development.
- bossyTeacher 1mo ago
  >But people act like all you have to do is carefully plan everything out up front, double check it at the end, and bob's your uncle. It's a coping mechanism. Goal shifting to protect yourself.
- queenkjuul 1mo ago
  I can't even count how often i think i have everything planned out and then halfway through implementation realizing a much better way, or some case i didn't consider, or a different way to eliminate the problem, etc. This is true both when I'm writing code myself and when I'm driving Claude. I see coworkers just taking the first concept from Claude and running with it and you can really tell that skipping the thinking that goes on during the implementation step really has drastic bad effects on the final code.

bluegatty 1mo ago

Typing it was never the work. The research, the understanding, the planning, the design, all of it's iterations, the testing, all of it's iterations, debugging etc. 'I see the code and need to get it down' is a key thing obviously but a smaller part. With better abstractions, we'll be putting 'architectural ideas' in our head, instead of algorithmic.