3 ms·

Hallucination is not something specific to LLM by any means. Remember when you were a kid, your teacher probably told you "At an exam, leave no question unansw

Hallucination is not something specific to LLM by any means. Remember when you were a kid, your teacher probably told you "At an exam, leave no question unanswered, even if you don't know what to write. Nobody is penalised for wrong answers, but even total gibberish might sometimes add a half-point to your score".

angoragoats 1mo ago
Yes, but LLMs are hallucination machines by design. What I mean by this is that everything the LLM generates is a hallucination, untethered from truth or reality, since the data is generated purely based on statistics around what word is most likely to come next. This type of algorithm can never model "truth" or "fact." To the extent that an LLM generates something factual or realistic, it's doing so either accidentally, or because of the various band-aids that the grandparent post describes which will never fully solve the problem.
- aboardRat4 1mo ago
  Yeah, but humans are just as hallucinatory when speaking about pretty much anything other than their flat or kids. 99% of people learn by memorising facts, not by testing reality.
  - angoragoats 1mo ago
    > Yeah, but humans are just as hallucinatory when speaking about pretty much anything other than their flat or kids. Do you have a source for this? I vehemently disagree. > 99% of people learn by memorising facts, not by testing reality. I disagree with this too, but whether or not it’s true, LLMs don’t learn via either of these methods, so it’s not relevant to the discussion.
    - aboardRat4 1mo ago
      Gees... it never occurred to me that such an obvious thing needs a proof. I used to think that it's enough to kinda... just go out of one's luxury office at Y-Combinator and try talking to a janitor or a taxi driver... https://www.reddit.com/r/4chan/comments/onud4u/anon_researches_iq/ https://www.reddit.com/r/4chan/comments/onud4u/anon_research... >I disagree with this too, but whether or not it’s true, LLMs don’t learn via either of these methods, so it’s not relevant to the discussion. Em... I think it is relevant. In my mental model, an LLM is basically a giant hash table, so memorizing is about 90% of what it does.
      - angoragoats 1mo ago
        > Gees... it never occurred to me that such an obvious thing needs a proof. I didn’t ask for a proof, I asked for a source, and it is not obvious to me. Your claim is that “humans are just as hallucinatory [as LLMs] when speaking about pretty much anything other than their flat or kids.” This is a quite an outlandish claim to make given that LLMs hallucinate literally every single thing they produce; as I said previously they have no concept of “truth,” or “fact.” > https://www.reddit.com/r/4chan/comments/onud4u/anon_research https://www.reddit.com/r/4chan/comments/onud4u/anon_research I’m not sure what you’re trying to show with this link but posting an image of an anonymous message board with people using ableist slurs is not a great look. I have spoken to janitors and taxi drivers and had great intellectual conversations with many of them. Are you trying to say that they aren’t as smart on average as a Y Combinator employee? Because I’ve met some pretty stupid YC employees. > Em... I think it is relevant. In my mental model, an LLM is basically a giant hash table, so memorizing is about 90% of what it does. You specifically said “memorizing facts,” which an LLM definitely does not do at all. But as I said, I also disagree with your assertion. Pretty much the entire first several years of a child’s life consists solely of learning through testing reality, and we continue to test reality in other ways as we grow. And to say that 99% of people learn by any single method seems obviously false; we all learn through several different methods, depending on our brains and the particular situation at hand, and a portion of the learning that every person does is via testing reality.
        aboardRat4 1mo ago
        Come on, just come on.
        angoragoats 1mo ago
        That isn't responsive to anything I said. I'll summarize my position in case you're confused: * You said that humans are just as hallucinatory as LLMs when speaking about anything other than their flat or kids, and I think this is incorrect, because LLMs don't model "facts" at all. * So even if a human you're conversing with is purely reciting memorized facts back to you and not actually creatively thinking or "testing reality" at all (which, I repeat, is a wild claim), that person would not in any way be hallucinating in the same way an LLM does. * You then claimed that 99% of people learn by memorizing facts, not by testing reality. I think this is false on its face for multiple reasons, the most obvious one being that humans learn in varied, complex ways, and so it's nonsensical to treat a person as only being able to learn via a single method. Where did I go wrong? I'm happy to be set straight with facts/sources if I'm incorrect.
numpad0 1mo ago
That's what I'm saying. Musk corp guys seem ungrounded and hallucinating a ton like early GPTs.

angoragoats 1mo ago

Yes, but LLMs are hallucination machines by design. What I mean by this is that everything the LLM generates is a hallucination, untethered from truth or reality, since the data is generated purely based on statistics around what word is most likely to come next. This type of algorithm can never model "truth" or "fact." To the extent that an LLM generates something factual or realistic, it's doing so either accidentally, or because of the various band-aids that the grandparent post describes which will never fully solve the problem.

aboardRat4 1mo ago
Yeah, but humans are just as hallucinatory when speaking about pretty much anything other than their flat or kids. 99% of people learn by memorising facts, not by testing reality.
- angoragoats 1mo ago
  > Yeah, but humans are just as hallucinatory when speaking about pretty much anything other than their flat or kids. Do you have a source for this? I vehemently disagree. > 99% of people learn by memorising facts, not by testing reality. I disagree with this too, but whether or not it’s true, LLMs don’t learn via either of these methods, so it’s not relevant to the discussion.
  - aboardRat4 1mo ago
    Gees... it never occurred to me that such an obvious thing needs a proof. I used to think that it's enough to kinda... just go out of one's luxury office at Y-Combinator and try talking to a janitor or a taxi driver... https://www.reddit.com/r/4chan/comments/onud4u/anon_researches_iq/ https://www.reddit.com/r/4chan/comments/onud4u/anon_research... >I disagree with this too, but whether or not it’s true, LLMs don’t learn via either of these methods, so it’s not relevant to the discussion. Em... I think it is relevant. In my mental model, an LLM is basically a giant hash table, so memorizing is about 90% of what it does.
    - angoragoats 1mo ago
      > Gees... it never occurred to me that such an obvious thing needs a proof. I didn’t ask for a proof, I asked for a source, and it is not obvious to me. Your claim is that “humans are just as hallucinatory [as LLMs] when speaking about pretty much anything other than their flat or kids.” This is a quite an outlandish claim to make given that LLMs hallucinate literally every single thing they produce; as I said previously they have no concept of “truth,” or “fact.” > https://www.reddit.com/r/4chan/comments/onud4u/anon_research https://www.reddit.com/r/4chan/comments/onud4u/anon_research I’m not sure what you’re trying to show with this link but posting an image of an anonymous message board with people using ableist slurs is not a great look. I have spoken to janitors and taxi drivers and had great intellectual conversations with many of them. Are you trying to say that they aren’t as smart on average as a Y Combinator employee? Because I’ve met some pretty stupid YC employees. > Em... I think it is relevant. In my mental model, an LLM is basically a giant hash table, so memorizing is about 90% of what it does. You specifically said “memorizing facts,” which an LLM definitely does not do at all. But as I said, I also disagree with your assertion. Pretty much the entire first several years of a child’s life consists solely of learning through testing reality, and we continue to test reality in other ways as we grow. And to say that 99% of people learn by any single method seems obviously false; we all learn through several different methods, depending on our brains and the particular situation at hand, and a portion of the learning that every person does is via testing reality.
      - aboardRat4 1mo ago
        Come on, just come on.
        angoragoats 1mo ago
        That isn't responsive to anything I said. I'll summarize my position in case you're confused: * You said that humans are just as hallucinatory as LLMs when speaking about anything other than their flat or kids, and I think this is incorrect, because LLMs don't model "facts" at all. * So even if a human you're conversing with is purely reciting memorized facts back to you and not actually creatively thinking or "testing reality" at all (which, I repeat, is a wild claim), that person would not in any way be hallucinating in the same way an LLM does. * You then claimed that 99% of people learn by memorizing facts, not by testing reality. I think this is false on its face for multiple reasons, the most obvious one being that humans learn in varied, complex ways, and so it's nonsensical to treat a person as only being able to learn via a single method. Where did I go wrong? I'm happy to be set straight with facts/sources if I'm incorrect.

numpad0 1mo ago

That's what I'm saying. Musk corp guys seem ungrounded and hallucinating a ton like early GPTs.