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Why do you invent a new language for your work? Why did you not embed your language into another one, with type system that is superset of what you need? For

by thesz 1mo ago

Why do you invent a new language for your work? Why did you not embed your language into another one, with type system that is superset of what you need? For example, there's capabilities expressed in Haskell: https://github.com/tweag/capability https://github.com/tweag/capability Capabilities there are tracked at type level and are subject to type erasure, if possible.

tome 1mo ago
I'll blow my own trumpet and promote my own Haskell capabilities library, Bluefin: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/bluefin https://hackage.haskell.org/package/bluefin Bluefin is used in production, and as far as I know capability is not.
- ch4s3 1mo ago
  That looks really cool. Can you narrow Bluefin.IO to reads/writes separately? One of the things I've worked on is the ability to allow code to read files, even specific files, but deny writes.
  - tome 1mo ago
    Yeah you can write a capability that encapsulates exactly whatever effects that you like!
    - ch4s3 1mo ago
      Did this start as an effect system and then capabilities shook out naturally?
      - tome 1mo ago
        Yes! It started as an implementation of the effect system I always wanted: effects passed on the value level, rather than implicitly on the type level. Once I'd done that I realise that it was actually a capability system (and that was the better way of describing it, because more people already know what a "capability system" is).
        ch4s3 1mo ago
        That’s not surprising there’s a lot of mechanical overlap between the two. It’s a really interesting relationship.
        tome 28d ago
        Yeah, I think they're basically identical concepts. I'm writing an article on that topic right now.
        ch4s3 28d ago
        I’d love to read it!
        tome 28d ago
        Here you go! It's a complete document, but I'll continue to edit it over the next few days before I announce it. I'd love to hear any thoughts you have. https://h2.jaguarpaw.co.uk/posts/bluefin-capability-system/ https://h2.jaguarpaw.co.uk/posts/bluefin-capability-system/
        ch4s3 26d ago
        Awesome, I'll take a look and shoot you an email if I have anything interesting to say about it.
        tome 26d ago
        Cool, my contact details are on the front page of that site.
ch4s3 1mo ago
There are a few reasons for this. I really can't seem to wrap my head around Haskell in the wild as written by real people. I also wanted to tie capabilities into the build system tooling so that the build tool could verify caps and launch executables into an OS sandbox. Bolting on capabilities doesn't offer the same ability to enforce them, for example the March package manager ForgePM will reject packages that falsify their cap manifest. Moreover I was reading some papers that inspired the language, and wanted to try it. Cap(X) is also erased b the type checker during compilation in March.

by thesz 1mo ago

tome 1mo ago

I'll blow my own trumpet and promote my own Haskell capabilities library, Bluefin: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/bluefin https://hackage.haskell.org/package/bluefin Bluefin is used in production, and as far as I know capability is not.

ch4s3 1mo ago
That looks really cool. Can you narrow Bluefin.IO to reads/writes separately? One of the things I've worked on is the ability to allow code to read files, even specific files, but deny writes.
- tome 1mo ago
  Yeah you can write a capability that encapsulates exactly whatever effects that you like!
  - ch4s3 1mo ago
    Did this start as an effect system and then capabilities shook out naturally?
    - tome 1mo ago
      Yes! It started as an implementation of the effect system I always wanted: effects passed on the value level, rather than implicitly on the type level. Once I'd done that I realise that it was actually a capability system (and that was the better way of describing it, because more people already know what a "capability system" is).
      - ch4s3 1mo ago
        That’s not surprising there’s a lot of mechanical overlap between the two. It’s a really interesting relationship.
        tome 28d ago
        Yeah, I think they're basically identical concepts. I'm writing an article on that topic right now.
        ch4s3 28d ago
        I’d love to read it!
        tome 28d ago
        Here you go! It's a complete document, but I'll continue to edit it over the next few days before I announce it. I'd love to hear any thoughts you have. https://h2.jaguarpaw.co.uk/posts/bluefin-capability-system/ https://h2.jaguarpaw.co.uk/posts/bluefin-capability-system/
        ch4s3 26d ago
        Awesome, I'll take a look and shoot you an email if I have anything interesting to say about it.
        tome 26d ago
        Cool, my contact details are on the front page of that site.

ch4s3 1mo ago

There are a few reasons for this. I really can't seem to wrap my head around Haskell in the wild as written by real people. I also wanted to tie capabilities into the build system tooling so that the build tool could verify caps and launch executables into an OS sandbox. Bolting on capabilities doesn't offer the same ability to enforce them, for example the March package manager ForgePM will reject packages that falsify their cap manifest. Moreover I was reading some papers that inspired the language, and wanted to try it. Cap(X) is also erased b the type checker during compilation in March.