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The original caretakers of the Australian continent have been telling the same stories orally for 40,000 years. Let that sink in! It is extraordinary to me th

The original caretakers of the Australian continent have been telling the same stories orally for 40,000 years. Let that sink in! It is extraordinary to me that they don't get as much clout as they deserve for maintaining human civilization for so long. They literally evolved cryptologically sound techniques for maintaining their history - through fires, floods, calamity and Mother Nature. We can't even keep our stories straight in the modern era for longer than 8 months.

ViktorRay 2mo ago
What are some good books or websites where one can read these stories? I am interested in learning more about them.
- MomsAVoxell 2mo ago
  https://aiatsis.gov.au/explore/marlaloo-songline https://aiatsis.gov.au/explore/marlaloo-songline https://www.aboriginalculture.com.au/aboriginal-religion/ https://www.aboriginalculture.com.au/aboriginal-religion/ There are plenty of other places to start the journey but those will get you on the path.
lisper 2mo ago
> The original caretakers of the Australian continent have been telling the same stories orally for 40,000 years. I know that this is commonly believed, but how could you possibly know?
- bcraven 2mo ago
  I recommend everyone watch the documentary First Footprints[0], it is the most wondrous thing I have ever seen. The simple answer is that some storied reference events that happened that long ago.[1] [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1n6VJ5jq7zY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1n6VJ5jq7zY [1] https://www.science.org/content/article/aboriginal-tale-ancient-volcano-oldest-story-ever-told https://www.science.org/content/article/aboriginal-tale-anci...
  - thaumasiotes 2mo ago
    > The simple answer is that some storied reference events that happened that long ago. This is another thing that you can't know. If there is a match between an inferred geological event and a mythological event, you'd still have to ask "what is the rate of this happening by coincidence?"
    - lukan 2mo ago
      And then you'd still have to ask yourself, whether anything is real or a simulation, or a dream of god, etc. Otherwise history is indeed much guesswork, as we don't have a timemachine and rely on lot's of indirect evidence for everything.
      - MomsAVoxell 2mo ago
        This is like looking at a seismograph or an electrocardiogram and concluding that it doesn’t represent anything worth knowing “because nothing is real”, “they were just dreaming because they were primitive”, or “we don’t have a <mythological and impossible device> to prove these stories”. We do have methods of proving these stories - we can dig trenches and see the history as it was described, in the land itself. Please, do not dismiss this on the basis of some authoritarian postulates about not having developed your own cultures time machines. Song lines literally are a verifiable time record.
        lukan 2mo ago
        I was mainly mocking the absolutistic comment above, I find it very possible that the aborigines culture remembers very old events and that there can be proof in the conventional sense for it. But it would be indirect proof.
        MomsAVoxell 2mo ago
        It is direct proof in the geological record, what part of that are you just failing to understand?
- smallnix 2mo ago
  I remember they found remnants of a 10k yr old ritual ground that matches the ritual in the oral tradition. Found it https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-024-01912-w https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-024-01912-w
  - vintermann 2mo ago
    There is also a legend of incestuous royals connected to the Boyne valley tombs in Ireland, written down in the 12th century. DNA examination of a person buried in the tombs found that his parents were indeed very closely related. This suggests almost 5000 years of oral tradition, even surviving a fairly big cultural replacement event. If that can happen, it's not so surprising a story can last 20-30000 years either - especially not if there's not much else making a similar impression to tell stories about.
- MomsAVoxell 2mo ago
  Indeed, there are scientific studies which correlate specific tales to geologic events which occurred in the tens of thousands of years ago - there are multiple studies now. The one I know of by way of personal experience (heard the songs, been there many times) is the tale of the creation of Wadjemup (Rottnest Island) ... I don’t have references handy at the moment - I leave it up to you as an exercise to go on a course of interesting discovery - because there are some very fascinating papers for you to read, if you maintain the interest in the subject. The treatise on the potential crypto mechanisms (kinship system in a multi-lingual environment) is extremely fascinating, if I get a chance to find the references in a few days or so I’ll try to follow up … but anyway, do go do your own search, it is worth the journey. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agcH95AfU58 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agcH95AfU58
- deleted 2mo ago
  [deleted]
AlecSchueler 2mo ago
> the same stories orally for 40,000 years How is this confirmed without records?
- thaumasiotes 2mo ago
  That's the beauty of the claim - it doesn't need to be confirmed!
  - MomsAVoxell 2mo ago
    And the ugliness of the counter-claim, which can affirm authority without having done any actual study of the subject. The claims are confirmed.
- AngryData 2mo ago
  It isn't confirmed but their stories do match some geological and enviromental events going back that far.
- MomsAVoxell 2mo ago
  The song lines literally are a record of what has happened to the land over these periods of times - supported by the geology itself. The formation of islands, the kinds of animals that used to be found there, the movement of lakes, the lowering and raising of the oceans - these are all confirmed, recorded events.
  - andsoitis 2mo ago
    [dead]
andsoitis 2mo ago
> The original caretakers of the Australian continent have been telling the same stories orally for 40,000 years. The San have been around for over 100,000 years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_peoples https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_peoples
- MomsAVoxell 2mo ago
  Mungo Lady: https://www.nma.gov.au/defining-moments/resources/mungo-lady https://www.nma.gov.au/defining-moments/resources/mungo-lady

ViktorRay 2mo ago

What are some good books or websites where one can read these stories? I am interested in learning more about them.

MomsAVoxell 2mo ago
https://aiatsis.gov.au/explore/marlaloo-songline https://aiatsis.gov.au/explore/marlaloo-songline https://www.aboriginalculture.com.au/aboriginal-religion/ https://www.aboriginalculture.com.au/aboriginal-religion/ There are plenty of other places to start the journey but those will get you on the path.

lisper 2mo ago

> The original caretakers of the Australian continent have been telling the same stories orally for 40,000 years. I know that this is commonly believed, but how could you possibly know?

bcraven 2mo ago
I recommend everyone watch the documentary First Footprints[0], it is the most wondrous thing I have ever seen. The simple answer is that some storied reference events that happened that long ago.[1] [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1n6VJ5jq7zY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1n6VJ5jq7zY [1] https://www.science.org/content/article/aboriginal-tale-ancient-volcano-oldest-story-ever-told https://www.science.org/content/article/aboriginal-tale-anci...
- thaumasiotes 2mo ago
  > The simple answer is that some storied reference events that happened that long ago. This is another thing that you can't know. If there is a match between an inferred geological event and a mythological event, you'd still have to ask "what is the rate of this happening by coincidence?"
  - lukan 2mo ago
    And then you'd still have to ask yourself, whether anything is real or a simulation, or a dream of god, etc. Otherwise history is indeed much guesswork, as we don't have a timemachine and rely on lot's of indirect evidence for everything.
    - MomsAVoxell 2mo ago
      This is like looking at a seismograph or an electrocardiogram and concluding that it doesn’t represent anything worth knowing “because nothing is real”, “they were just dreaming because they were primitive”, or “we don’t have a <mythological and impossible device> to prove these stories”. We do have methods of proving these stories - we can dig trenches and see the history as it was described, in the land itself. Please, do not dismiss this on the basis of some authoritarian postulates about not having developed your own cultures time machines. Song lines literally are a verifiable time record.
      - lukan 2mo ago
        I was mainly mocking the absolutistic comment above, I find it very possible that the aborigines culture remembers very old events and that there can be proof in the conventional sense for it. But it would be indirect proof.
        MomsAVoxell 2mo ago
        It is direct proof in the geological record, what part of that are you just failing to understand?
smallnix 2mo ago
I remember they found remnants of a 10k yr old ritual ground that matches the ritual in the oral tradition. Found it https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-024-01912-w https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-024-01912-w
- vintermann 2mo ago
  There is also a legend of incestuous royals connected to the Boyne valley tombs in Ireland, written down in the 12th century. DNA examination of a person buried in the tombs found that his parents were indeed very closely related. This suggests almost 5000 years of oral tradition, even surviving a fairly big cultural replacement event. If that can happen, it's not so surprising a story can last 20-30000 years either - especially not if there's not much else making a similar impression to tell stories about.
MomsAVoxell 2mo ago
Indeed, there are scientific studies which correlate specific tales to geologic events which occurred in the tens of thousands of years ago - there are multiple studies now. The one I know of by way of personal experience (heard the songs, been there many times) is the tale of the creation of Wadjemup (Rottnest Island) ... I don’t have references handy at the moment - I leave it up to you as an exercise to go on a course of interesting discovery - because there are some very fascinating papers for you to read, if you maintain the interest in the subject. The treatise on the potential crypto mechanisms (kinship system in a multi-lingual environment) is extremely fascinating, if I get a chance to find the references in a few days or so I’ll try to follow up … but anyway, do go do your own search, it is worth the journey. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agcH95AfU58 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agcH95AfU58
deleted 2mo ago
[deleted]

AlecSchueler 2mo ago

> the same stories orally for 40,000 years How is this confirmed without records?

thaumasiotes 2mo ago
That's the beauty of the claim - it doesn't need to be confirmed!
- MomsAVoxell 2mo ago
  And the ugliness of the counter-claim, which can affirm authority without having done any actual study of the subject. The claims are confirmed.
AngryData 2mo ago
It isn't confirmed but their stories do match some geological and enviromental events going back that far.
MomsAVoxell 2mo ago
The song lines literally are a record of what has happened to the land over these periods of times - supported by the geology itself. The formation of islands, the kinds of animals that used to be found there, the movement of lakes, the lowering and raising of the oceans - these are all confirmed, recorded events.
- andsoitis 2mo ago
  [dead]

andsoitis 2mo ago

> The original caretakers of the Australian continent have been telling the same stories orally for 40,000 years. The San have been around for over 100,000 years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_peoples https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_peoples

MomsAVoxell 2mo ago
Mungo Lady: https://www.nma.gov.au/defining-moments/resources/mungo-lady https://www.nma.gov.au/defining-moments/resources/mungo-lady