6 ms·

What makes you think that the Mexican problems of multi-generational poverty and lack of education have anything to do with quality high IQ stock? You mention

What makes you think that the Mexican problems of multi-generational poverty and lack of education have anything to do with quality high IQ stock? You mention Europe as our historical sources of quality immigrants, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Mexican's mostly of Spanish descent, just like Americans are mostly of English/Irish/German/Italian descent? And the last time I checked Spain is in Europe. I don't have any magic means for getting 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants out of poverty, but I do know that America has a unique underclass problem in the industrialized world. And I don't think immigration has much to do with it, there are not a lot of immigrants in Appalachia. Compare the social services in the US vs the rest of the industrialized world. Outside the US, you tend to see things like cradle to grave, and those are not magic. They are expensive, but they are not magic. A valid debate would be the cost vs benefits of European or Canadian style social services vs what the US has. Lastly, I don't think low reproductive levels are responsible for the lack of European immigrants. Ireland still have quite the high birth rate, and they aren't falling over to come the the US, like they did during the famine. Their present standard of living might have something to do with that. You don't attract masses of immigrants from places that have a standard of living just as high as yours. And I'm not sure what you mean by East Asians having a higher but less creative IQ? I suspect your prejudices are formed by the fact that East Asians can't walk into the states, and that means they are less likely to be common laborers and more likely to have a formal schooling background. If the US bordered India, and Mexico was across the ocean, things would be reversed.

chiffonade 18y ago
> And I'm not sure what you mean by East Asians having a higher but less creative IQ? See, when racists use "average IQ" as a weapon against blacks and mexicans, they have to somehow justify their 2nd place to the Asians or else they will not feel comfortable using these "studies" as proof. They just say "oh, well they're less creative, so you know, white people are really still at the top", and everything is right again in the world. Did you see what they did there? They took valid objective metrics - statistics - and disqualified the positive outcome for a selected class of people with something totally subjective - creativity. This is classic racism. It's a nonsense argument posited by younger people who really haven't had much life experience, and have not met many people who aren't of their same race. Personally I don't believe in average anything when it comes to race, it's a totally meaningless metric that will get you absolutely nowhere when you deal with actual people and in some cases will handicap you with preconceived notions. I've conducted enough business with enough people in this economy to know that. Younger or less experienced people may have not. > but aren't Mexican's mostly of Spanish descent Racists never blame white Europeans for anything, especially not fundamentally flawed colonial systems like the Spaniards' that were devised by greedy people who were bent on raping native people and lands for as much wealth as possible in as little time as possible - actually, why should they blame them, it worked flawlessly, didn't it?
- ryanwaggoner 18y ago
  It's a nonsense argument posited by younger people who really haven't had much life experience, and have not met many people who aren't of their same race. Agree with everything you said except for this. Most of the most racist people I know are 40+. Sadly, I don't think life experience tempers prejudice...often it just reinforces it.
- defen 18y ago
  > Personally I don't believe in average anything when it comes to race, it's a totally meaningless metric that will get you absolutely nowhere when you deal with actual people and in some cases will handicap you with preconceived notions. I agree that you can't use race to judge individual people, but it's ridiculous to not "believe in average anything when it comes to race". Again, individuals must be judged on their own merits. But if only 20% of Hispanic students graduate college, versus 40% of white ones, you can't just automatically assume institutional racism. All human sub-populations are not equal. Check out this new book - http://the10000yearexplosion.com/ http://the10000yearexplosion.com/
  - chiffonade 18y ago
    > All human sub-populations are not equal You look down on hispanics, do you think Asian Americans look down on you because your racial "subpopulation" is behind theirs in college degrees, graduate degrees, and median income?
    - defen 18y ago
      I don't "look down on" Hispanics - intelligence is not a moral value. And I've been around enough Chinese Americans to know that yes, a lot of them do look down on white Americans, for the aforementioned reasons as well as others.
      - chiffonade 18y ago
        > And I've been around enough Chinese Americans to know that yes, a lot of them do look down on white Americans, for the aforementioned reasons as well as others. Yeah, so you know it's bullshit logic.
thras 18y ago
Starting with your first point, 1) except among the upper classes, Mexicans are not generally Spaniards. They are of mixed Native American, Spaniard, and to some small degree African descent. The upper class Mexicans tend not to be the ones encouraged to cross the border by Mexican government policy. 2) America's underclass starts looking much like Europe's once you account for race. Look at NAEP scores for North Dakota some time. Awful smart for a state with the same per-capita education spending as New Mexico. Guess what North Dakota has more of (and what it has less of) than any other state in the union. 3) The best measure of East Asian creativity is probably through patent studies. It is a hard thing to get a hold of. But there seems to be less of it -- and it's entirely possible that it's all due to living in highly socially conformist societies. But I'd be surprised. 4) Again, wrong. East Asians tend to do well even in places where they are imported as common laborers. All those Chinese tin miners in Malaysia, what do you think they're doing now? Certain groups become market-dominant minorities wherever they go, and certain groups become the opposite wherever they go. IQ is by far the most parsimonious explanation (as is backed up by a vast amount of evidence).
- jibiki 18y ago
  > 3) The best measure of East Asian creativity is probably through patent studies. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creativity#Measuring_creativity http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creativity#Measuring_creativity This links to a couple different creativity measures, although I have no idea if they've been used to make weird racial comparisons.
- biohacker42 18y ago
  The best measure of East Asian creativity is probably through patent studies You're kidding right? I am at a huge corporation now which has literally hundreds of patents, previously I worked for a startup with no patents. Would like you to guess which has the BY FAR smarter and more creative employees? Patents are a profoundly stupid way to measure creativity. IQ is by far the most parsimonious explanation I think you are kidding, or at least trolling.

chiffonade 18y ago

> And I'm not sure what you mean by East Asians having a higher but less creative IQ? See, when racists use "average IQ" as a weapon against blacks and mexicans, they have to somehow justify their 2nd place to the Asians or else they will not feel comfortable using these "studies" as proof. They just say "oh, well they're less creative, so you know, white people are really still at the top", and everything is right again in the world. Did you see what they did there? They took valid objective metrics - statistics - and disqualified the positive outcome for a selected class of people with something totally subjective - creativity. This is classic racism. It's a nonsense argument posited by younger people who really haven't had much life experience, and have not met many people who aren't of their same race. Personally I don't believe in average anything when it comes to race, it's a totally meaningless metric that will get you absolutely nowhere when you deal with actual people and in some cases will handicap you with preconceived notions. I've conducted enough business with enough people in this economy to know that. Younger or less experienced people may have not. > but aren't Mexican's mostly of Spanish descent Racists never blame white Europeans for anything, especially not fundamentally flawed colonial systems like the Spaniards' that were devised by greedy people who were bent on raping native people and lands for as much wealth as possible in as little time as possible - actually, why should they blame them, it worked flawlessly, didn't it?

ryanwaggoner 18y ago
It's a nonsense argument posited by younger people who really haven't had much life experience, and have not met many people who aren't of their same race. Agree with everything you said except for this. Most of the most racist people I know are 40+. Sadly, I don't think life experience tempers prejudice...often it just reinforces it.
defen 18y ago
> Personally I don't believe in average anything when it comes to race, it's a totally meaningless metric that will get you absolutely nowhere when you deal with actual people and in some cases will handicap you with preconceived notions. I agree that you can't use race to judge individual people, but it's ridiculous to not "believe in average anything when it comes to race". Again, individuals must be judged on their own merits. But if only 20% of Hispanic students graduate college, versus 40% of white ones, you can't just automatically assume institutional racism. All human sub-populations are not equal. Check out this new book - http://the10000yearexplosion.com/ http://the10000yearexplosion.com/
- chiffonade 18y ago
  > All human sub-populations are not equal You look down on hispanics, do you think Asian Americans look down on you because your racial "subpopulation" is behind theirs in college degrees, graduate degrees, and median income?
  - defen 18y ago
    I don't "look down on" Hispanics - intelligence is not a moral value. And I've been around enough Chinese Americans to know that yes, a lot of them do look down on white Americans, for the aforementioned reasons as well as others.
    - chiffonade 18y ago
      > And I've been around enough Chinese Americans to know that yes, a lot of them do look down on white Americans, for the aforementioned reasons as well as others. Yeah, so you know it's bullshit logic.

thras 18y ago

Starting with your first point, 1) except among the upper classes, Mexicans are not generally Spaniards. They are of mixed Native American, Spaniard, and to some small degree African descent. The upper class Mexicans tend not to be the ones encouraged to cross the border by Mexican government policy. 2) America's underclass starts looking much like Europe's once you account for race. Look at NAEP scores for North Dakota some time. Awful smart for a state with the same per-capita education spending as New Mexico. Guess what North Dakota has more of (and what it has less of) than any other state in the union. 3) The best measure of East Asian creativity is probably through patent studies. It is a hard thing to get a hold of. But there seems to be less of it -- and it's entirely possible that it's all due to living in highly socially conformist societies. But I'd be surprised. 4) Again, wrong. East Asians tend to do well even in places where they are imported as common laborers. All those Chinese tin miners in Malaysia, what do you think they're doing now? Certain groups become market-dominant minorities wherever they go, and certain groups become the opposite wherever they go. IQ is by far the most parsimonious explanation (as is backed up by a vast amount of evidence).

jibiki 18y ago
> 3) The best measure of East Asian creativity is probably through patent studies. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creativity#Measuring_creativity http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creativity#Measuring_creativity This links to a couple different creativity measures, although I have no idea if they've been used to make weird racial comparisons.
biohacker42 18y ago
The best measure of East Asian creativity is probably through patent studies You're kidding right? I am at a huge corporation now which has literally hundreds of patents, previously I worked for a startup with no patents. Would like you to guess which has the BY FAR smarter and more creative employees? Patents are a profoundly stupid way to measure creativity. IQ is by far the most parsimonious explanation I think you are kidding, or at least trolling.