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Yeah... my solution for the last 3 decades (with a grain of salt) has been to buy the most expensive decked out Apple laptop every 6 years and never, ever updat

Yeah... my solution for the last 3 decades (with a grain of salt) has been to buy the most expensive decked out Apple laptop every 6 years and never, ever update the OS. This is in line with my philosophy about shoes: I only own 5 copies of one pair (4 in boxes in my closet until I wear the current ones out). Rolling everything over to a new dev environment every 6 years is annoying but manageable. This way I took a Powerbook 3400 into the intel age, took a titanium macbook into the air age, took two airs for almost a decade from 10.4 to 10.10 or something, then an M1. Which I'm still using. The 3400 still boots into OS 9 or something. I feel like I'm forgetting one. But the point is this: Apple software usually suits the hardware it's released with, and taking their updates is always a bad idea. Just get comfy with homebrew and settle down for your 30s or 40s until you've broken all the keys and the fan stops working. A $3-4k investment in the best performing machine they have will be great essentially until the machine itself breaks as long as you scrupulously block all apple ip addresses and rip all their update shit out as soon as you get your hands on it. Also, the m5 mac mini impulse buy as a home server has been fantastic to just login to remotely, but I'm so glad I'm still using Monterey on my M1 for daily coding.

mjochim 2mo ago
> never, ever update the OS. > took two airs for almost a decade from 10.4 to 10.10 or something I’m curious, did macOS 10.4->10.10 not constitute an OS update? Or was this a time when you applied your rule differently?
- noduerme 2mo ago
  I'd have to check em, it was just a guess, but I have two airs from the last decade (2009 and 2015 I think) with their original operating systems and I think one is around 10.4 and the other 10.10ish. Maybe I misunderstood your question... I never updated the OS on either of them. Or on any Mac I've owned since the mid 90s.
  - mjochim 2mo ago
    Oh I see, it was two different laptops, one with 10.4 and the other with 10.10. I thought that both started at 10.4 and then had all version updates up until 10.10.
Applejinx 2mo ago
I do this! Interesting to see someone else advocating the practice. In my open source development I start work on a retro machine running Snow Leopard, specifically to be able to generate authentic retro binaries that'll work anywhere, and then I have a process to port to modern MacOS and signed Apple Silicon binaries, but the machine's a M1 Studio on Monterey and building for 11.1. My worry is that they'll kill signing for people who aren't updating, though that shouldn't be a factor. I would have to simply get another machine to port to, because I don't trust that changes they make are always going to be good in any sense. There might be a window for computing within which it's good: I find I'm not worried about adding new Linux machines and architectures to build for, but my Windows builds are 32 and 64 bit on Windows 7 with no attempt to modernize the build system, and I've got that two-stage Mac build process where it starts on a time capsule machine not connected to the internet, and continues on the M1 running Monterey. I'm anxious for the day Apple requires you use stuff that's constantly changed out from under you. I don't work like that.
- noduerme 2mo ago
  Wow! Great respect to how you've set up your publishing that way! I don't build anything for the Apple ecosystem, and haven't since around 2015, and my biggest fear was always some dreaded forced update (or new app store jargon) .... so yeah, I think you're living on the knife's edge, but I would do the same. One great reason for never upgrading the OS is you can still pop open a laptop and run things you wrote 10 or 20 years ago... and honestly now I've sent Claude around my local network accessing those old laptops and snapshotting and clicking ancient apps and rewriting things I'm too tired to do by hand, which is weird but kind of a nice coda to my work.
salsa_catsup 2mo ago
I should have done this with my 2020 Intel Macbook Pro. Now it's basically unusable and spins rainbow wheels constantly, because the OS is apparently garbage for an Intel system.
- edschofield 2mo ago
  I had the same experience as you. I bought a super-fast 10-core iMac 27” with 72 GB of RAM in 2020. It ran beautifully until the moment I “upgraded” to Tahoe, when it instantly became unusably slow. This cost me half a day wiping the disk, restoring the original OS, and then carefully upgrading back to Sequoia. Now it works well again, but I am counting the days to when Linux is the only way to continue using this great piece of hardware. Another anecdote: a few years ago I was offered a shiny new never-before-used iPad for free by a client (a telco). There was only one catch, I was told: it was a few generations old. It had sat in its box on a shelf unopened for several years. I thought it might be useful at least as an e-reader, but I soon realized why it was now useless: I could not find a single app in the App Store that would install on it because every app required a “newer OS” (which wasn’t available). Most websites also refused to talk to its old (non-upgradable) web browser. Well played, Apple.
wooderson_iii 2mo ago
I'm not sure either of your approaches are optimal. You'd be further ahead with the shoes to be alternating two pairs as they last longer with recovery & dry time. Ignoring security updates, while maintaining performance, takes on a certain amount of risk. And while I do a similar approach to machines I do art/performance stuff with, they're air gapped when frozen. And you can't take this approach if you're publishing anything with Xcode.
galfarragem 2mo ago
I have an old laptop that is still usable because I never updated it from win7 or better I updated it once but switched back.
sgerenser 2mo ago
Surely you mean you don't update the major OS version, e.g. from Sequoia (15) to Tahoe (26)? Or do you literally mean if you start on Sequoia 15.0, you stay on 15.0 the entire life of the machine? The former is fairly understandable, but the latter is just insane considering the number of bugs in a x.0 release (including severe security and usability issues).

mjochim 2mo ago

> never, ever update the OS. > took two airs for almost a decade from 10.4 to 10.10 or something I’m curious, did macOS 10.4->10.10 not constitute an OS update? Or was this a time when you applied your rule differently?

noduerme 2mo ago
I'd have to check em, it was just a guess, but I have two airs from the last decade (2009 and 2015 I think) with their original operating systems and I think one is around 10.4 and the other 10.10ish. Maybe I misunderstood your question... I never updated the OS on either of them. Or on any Mac I've owned since the mid 90s.
- mjochim 2mo ago
  Oh I see, it was two different laptops, one with 10.4 and the other with 10.10. I thought that both started at 10.4 and then had all version updates up until 10.10.

Applejinx 2mo ago

I do this! Interesting to see someone else advocating the practice. In my open source development I start work on a retro machine running Snow Leopard, specifically to be able to generate authentic retro binaries that'll work anywhere, and then I have a process to port to modern MacOS and signed Apple Silicon binaries, but the machine's a M1 Studio on Monterey and building for 11.1. My worry is that they'll kill signing for people who aren't updating, though that shouldn't be a factor. I would have to simply get another machine to port to, because I don't trust that changes they make are always going to be good in any sense. There might be a window for computing within which it's good: I find I'm not worried about adding new Linux machines and architectures to build for, but my Windows builds are 32 and 64 bit on Windows 7 with no attempt to modernize the build system, and I've got that two-stage Mac build process where it starts on a time capsule machine not connected to the internet, and continues on the M1 running Monterey. I'm anxious for the day Apple requires you use stuff that's constantly changed out from under you. I don't work like that.

noduerme 2mo ago
Wow! Great respect to how you've set up your publishing that way! I don't build anything for the Apple ecosystem, and haven't since around 2015, and my biggest fear was always some dreaded forced update (or new app store jargon) .... so yeah, I think you're living on the knife's edge, but I would do the same. One great reason for never upgrading the OS is you can still pop open a laptop and run things you wrote 10 or 20 years ago... and honestly now I've sent Claude around my local network accessing those old laptops and snapshotting and clicking ancient apps and rewriting things I'm too tired to do by hand, which is weird but kind of a nice coda to my work.

salsa_catsup 2mo ago

I should have done this with my 2020 Intel Macbook Pro. Now it's basically unusable and spins rainbow wheels constantly, because the OS is apparently garbage for an Intel system.

edschofield 2mo ago
I had the same experience as you. I bought a super-fast 10-core iMac 27” with 72 GB of RAM in 2020. It ran beautifully until the moment I “upgraded” to Tahoe, when it instantly became unusably slow. This cost me half a day wiping the disk, restoring the original OS, and then carefully upgrading back to Sequoia. Now it works well again, but I am counting the days to when Linux is the only way to continue using this great piece of hardware. Another anecdote: a few years ago I was offered a shiny new never-before-used iPad for free by a client (a telco). There was only one catch, I was told: it was a few generations old. It had sat in its box on a shelf unopened for several years. I thought it might be useful at least as an e-reader, but I soon realized why it was now useless: I could not find a single app in the App Store that would install on it because every app required a “newer OS” (which wasn’t available). Most websites also refused to talk to its old (non-upgradable) web browser. Well played, Apple.

wooderson_iii 2mo ago

I'm not sure either of your approaches are optimal. You'd be further ahead with the shoes to be alternating two pairs as they last longer with recovery & dry time. Ignoring security updates, while maintaining performance, takes on a certain amount of risk. And while I do a similar approach to machines I do art/performance stuff with, they're air gapped when frozen. And you can't take this approach if you're publishing anything with Xcode.

galfarragem 2mo ago

I have an old laptop that is still usable because I never updated it from win7 or better I updated it once but switched back.

sgerenser 2mo ago

Surely you mean you don't update the major OS version, e.g. from Sequoia (15) to Tahoe (26)? Or do you literally mean if you start on Sequoia 15.0, you stay on 15.0 the entire life of the machine? The former is fairly understandable, but the latter is just insane considering the number of bugs in a x.0 release (including severe security and usability issues).