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> it is just a mathematical artefact of weirdly chosen coordinates. No, that's not correct. The fact that the singularity is always in your future inside the h

by pdonis 2mo ago

> it is just a mathematical artefact of weirdly chosen coordinates. No, that's not correct. The fact that the singularity is always in your future inside the horizon is an invariant, independent of any choice of coordinates. > the singularity is still just a point in space No, it's not. A point in space would be a timelike line in spacetime. But the singularity is a spacelike line in spacetime. That's a moment of time, not a place in space. > There's no need for this whole "space turns into time" notion That's true; that notion is an artifact of Schwarzschild coordinates. But that does not imply the other claims you are making. > the spatial coordinates of the singularity I'm not sure what you mean by this. It's true that, since the singularity is a spacelike line, you can treat a coordinate that varies along it as a "spatial" coordinate marking different spatial points on the singularity. But the singularity itself is a moment of time (as above, a spacelike line), so it is not a "place", and it does not have a particular set of "spatial coordinates". A spatial coordinate marking different points along the singularity is marking different points in space at a moment of time.

sigmoid10 2mo ago
Just draw the geometry in Eddington Finkelstein coordinates and you will see everything I wrote above is true at the technical level if you read precisely.
- pdonis 2mo ago
  No, everything you wrote is not true, in Eddington Finkelstein or any other coordinates. You wrote that the singularity is a point in space. It's not, no matter what coordinates you choose. It's a line in spacetime, but it's a spacelike line, and a spacelike line cannot describe a point in space. It can only describe a moment of time. No choice of coordinates can change that. (Similar remarks apply to your claim that the singularity always being in your future once you're inside the horizon is an artifact of a coordinate choice. It's not. It's just as true in Eddington-Finkelstein coordinates, or any others.) That also makes your use of the term "spatial coordinates" questionable, as I already pointed out. The fact that the line r = 0 is vertical in an Eddington-Finkelstein spacetime diagram does not mean it's automatically a "point in space" or that r inside the horizon is automatically a "spatial coordinate". You need to look at the actual physics, not just the surface appearance of the diagram.
  - sigmoid10 1mo ago
    >You wrote that the singularity is a point in space Because it is. Remember: space, not spacetime. Hence the remark in brackets in the original comment and my reminder to read precisely in the other one. And in Eddington Finkelstein it is most obvious that it is a point in space (i.e. it has spatial coordinate r=0 where r has the metric signature of a spatial dimension) that you can hit at various points in (global) time (and actually also in free falling observer time, but let's ignore that since it is not immediately obvious). You can literally trace incoming light rays crossing the event horizon and hitting the singularity at r=0 at a certain points in time in the diagram. This stuff is really not that weird once you choose less confusing coordinates. It only gets weird once you start asking what local observers can actually see, because from their perspective their relation to all other coordinates in spacetime gets really messy. That's probably where 95% of the confusion among laypeople comes from. But for that you can still resort to other coordinates which show it much better.
    - pdonis 1mo ago
      Sorry, you're just repeating the same wrong statement. I know you said "space", and I already explained that a spacelike line in spacetime cannot be a point in space. It can only be a moment of time. You are quite correct that, since the singularity is a line in spacetime, different incoming light rays (or free-falling observers, for that matter) can hit it at different points. Depending on how you choose your coordinates, you can set it up so that those points have different "time" coordinates. But that doesn't make the singularity a point in space. It means you're running up against relativity of simultaneity--whether or not different events on a spacelike line (or more generally a spacelike surface) happen at the same time depends on your choice of coordinates. You can, in fact, choose coordinates in which all events on the singularity happen at the same time (for a "time" coordinate that is genuinely timelike--see below). The standard Penrose chart does that, for example. You are also correct that a good choice of coordinates can make it easier to see certain properties of a spacetime geometry. But it can also make it harder to see other properties. In this case, your choice of Eddington-Finkelstein coordinates is making it harder for you to see why your claim that the singularity is a point in space is wrong, and why the things I said above are true. For example, inside the horizon, the Eddington-Finkelstein "time" coordinate that you are using is not timelike. It's spacelike. In other words, it's not actually a "time" coordinate (even though it's labeled as such). It is actually a "space" coordinate! You should be able to see this by observing that the singularity is a spacelike line, and in E-F coordinates it's a vertical line--i.e., the only coordinate that changes along it is the "time" coordinate. That means the "time" coordinate must actually be spacelike there. And, for extra confusion, the r coordinate in Eddington-Finkelstein coordinates is also spacelike, even inside the horizon (unlike in Schwarzschild coordinates, where it becomes timelike). So in this chart there is no coordinate that is timelike inside the horizon! That means any timelike curve inside the horizon must have more than one coordinate in this chart that changes along it (in the simplest case, a radial timelike curve, both the "time" and r coordinates must change along the curve).

by pdonis 2mo ago

sigmoid10 2mo ago

Just draw the geometry in Eddington Finkelstein coordinates and you will see everything I wrote above is true at the technical level if you read precisely.

pdonis 2mo ago
No, everything you wrote is not true, in Eddington Finkelstein or any other coordinates. You wrote that the singularity is a point in space. It's not, no matter what coordinates you choose. It's a line in spacetime, but it's a spacelike line, and a spacelike line cannot describe a point in space. It can only describe a moment of time. No choice of coordinates can change that. (Similar remarks apply to your claim that the singularity always being in your future once you're inside the horizon is an artifact of a coordinate choice. It's not. It's just as true in Eddington-Finkelstein coordinates, or any others.) That also makes your use of the term "spatial coordinates" questionable, as I already pointed out. The fact that the line r = 0 is vertical in an Eddington-Finkelstein spacetime diagram does not mean it's automatically a "point in space" or that r inside the horizon is automatically a "spatial coordinate". You need to look at the actual physics, not just the surface appearance of the diagram.
- sigmoid10 1mo ago
  >You wrote that the singularity is a point in space Because it is. Remember: space, not spacetime. Hence the remark in brackets in the original comment and my reminder to read precisely in the other one. And in Eddington Finkelstein it is most obvious that it is a point in space (i.e. it has spatial coordinate r=0 where r has the metric signature of a spatial dimension) that you can hit at various points in (global) time (and actually also in free falling observer time, but let's ignore that since it is not immediately obvious). You can literally trace incoming light rays crossing the event horizon and hitting the singularity at r=0 at a certain points in time in the diagram. This stuff is really not that weird once you choose less confusing coordinates. It only gets weird once you start asking what local observers can actually see, because from their perspective their relation to all other coordinates in spacetime gets really messy. That's probably where 95% of the confusion among laypeople comes from. But for that you can still resort to other coordinates which show it much better.
  - pdonis 1mo ago
    Sorry, you're just repeating the same wrong statement. I know you said "space", and I already explained that a spacelike line in spacetime cannot be a point in space. It can only be a moment of time. You are quite correct that, since the singularity is a line in spacetime, different incoming light rays (or free-falling observers, for that matter) can hit it at different points. Depending on how you choose your coordinates, you can set it up so that those points have different "time" coordinates. But that doesn't make the singularity a point in space. It means you're running up against relativity of simultaneity--whether or not different events on a spacelike line (or more generally a spacelike surface) happen at the same time depends on your choice of coordinates. You can, in fact, choose coordinates in which all events on the singularity happen at the same time (for a "time" coordinate that is genuinely timelike--see below). The standard Penrose chart does that, for example. You are also correct that a good choice of coordinates can make it easier to see certain properties of a spacetime geometry. But it can also make it harder to see other properties. In this case, your choice of Eddington-Finkelstein coordinates is making it harder for you to see why your claim that the singularity is a point in space is wrong, and why the things I said above are true. For example, inside the horizon, the Eddington-Finkelstein "time" coordinate that you are using is not timelike. It's spacelike. In other words, it's not actually a "time" coordinate (even though it's labeled as such). It is actually a "space" coordinate! You should be able to see this by observing that the singularity is a spacelike line, and in E-F coordinates it's a vertical line--i.e., the only coordinate that changes along it is the "time" coordinate. That means the "time" coordinate must actually be spacelike there. And, for extra confusion, the r coordinate in Eddington-Finkelstein coordinates is also spacelike, even inside the horizon (unlike in Schwarzschild coordinates, where it becomes timelike). So in this chart there is no coordinate that is timelike inside the horizon! That means any timelike curve inside the horizon must have more than one coordinate in this chart that changes along it (in the simplest case, a radial timelike curve, both the "time" and r coordinates must change along the curve).