5 ms·

A brief history of federal lift ticket regulation

69 points by CGMthrowaway 2mo ago

ksudb 2mo ago
[dead]
niwtsol 2mo ago
That was a very interesting read. I've always wondered about the details around the contract between the big ski resorts and the NFS, fun to read the actual permit. Ikon and Vail seem to be a duopoly and the geographical limitations inherent of a ski resort make the free-market argument hard to believe - you can't just open up a new resort next to breck or vail and charge lower rates. I was a long time epic/ikon pass holder - I didn't buy one last year, and I bought a smaller resort's season pass directly this year. Let it snow!
- eru 2mo ago
  > the geographical limitations inherent of a ski resort make the free-market argument hard to believe That's a bit of a weird argument? It's a bit like saying that while you are inside a Walmart, they have a monopoly on selling you stuff. Yes, that's true. But surely the relevant competition for ski resorts happens before you book your vacation?
  - markdown 2mo ago
    What if Vail owns all the ski resorts?
    - eru 2mo ago
      Go to the beach? Owning a ski resort is no different than owning any other desirable property: real estate has a local monopoly. You recover that via property taxes (or land value taxes).
      - brainwad 2mo ago
        The beach? In winter? The actual thing that skiiers in NA do now is fly to Europe or Japan, where Vail has not yet ruined skiing.
        eru 2mo ago
        Summer vacations compete with winter vacations for people's money. You can do fun stuff at the beach even in winter, and the beach was just one example. Thanks for bringing up international competition, too. Btw, just because it's cold in one part of the world, doesn't mean it's cold in another part.
      - hydrogen7800 2mo ago
        "Don't ski" is not a solution to a ski resort monopoly.
        cucumber3732842 2mo ago
        Yeah, it is. Recreational skiing is one of the purest of luxury goods. There are plenty of other exclusive hobbies that can more than soak up the demand. Bird hunting is basically a straight drop in replacement (expensive travel, expensive equipment, outdoors, etc).
        passivegains 2mo ago
        None of the skiers I know ski because they want to spend a lot of money, they spend a lot of money because they want to ski. (Hauling yourself up a freezing cold mountain might not sound like much fun but they quite enjoy it.) Nothing but skiing will do. None of the hunters I know hunt because they want to spend a lot of money, they spend a lot of money because they want to hunt (birds or otherwise.) (Crouching in a tree or a swamp for hours on end might not sound like much fun but they quite enjoy it.) Nothing but hunting will do. Hobbies are almost never drop in replacements for each other.
        2mo ago
  - niwtsol 2mo ago
    That's a fair counter. I think I stretched my usage of "geographical limitations" to include the permitting process and thus new entrants. It would be much easier for someone to build a competitor to the hypothetical Walmart you proposed on the same street, in the same town, somewhere close. Ski resorts need the permit from NFS and they stopped giving those out, so the supply is capped by federal policy.
    - eru 2mo ago
      Yes. Though people usually plan their holiday a bit in advance and are willing to travel, sometimes even globally. Ski resorts also compete with other non-ski holiday destinations.
ramesh31 2mo ago
On the other hand allowing the high window prices and holiday pricing are what drive the ability for these companies to make the massive capital investments that they have, while season pass prices have plummeted for anyone local that actually skis a lot. It's not just rent seeking; a lift ticket today is fundamentally a far superior product to what was being sold in the 70s, and nobody but gapers are paying full retail. Let them subsidize it for us I say.
- fchicken 2mo ago
  Not true. If you're on vacation looking to ski for 3 days, you're right in the crosshairs of the ski resort's price model, and you're not getting around it. I also don't see how the product is superior to what was offered prior
  - smelendez 2mo ago
    This is an issue with all kinds of products and services, from residential university education to cars to restaurant food. Expensive options with lots of extras that not everybody wants—and some may actively dislike—replace broadly affordable options with fewer bells and whistles. Everyone is catering to the whales and, thanks in part to our robust lending industries, trying to convince the minnows that they can be a whale too.
    - CalRobert 2mo ago
      It's an issue with inflation calculation too. Sure, product X (house, car, whatever) is twice as big, but now it also costs twice as much - can we really say that doesn't represent inflation when the smaller, cheaper version is no longer being made?
      - smelendez 2mo ago
        Yes, exactly. Same issue with cellphones: They’re more powerful and have better cameras, but many people are paying more to use the same apps they used a decade ago, even though inflation numbers say they’re getting a better deal.
fchicken 2mo ago
Wow.
zombot 2mo ago
There is federal lift ticket regulation, but the internet is the wild west. That's some irony.
pxx 2mo ago
All of this text complaining about prices rising faster than other goods, but many of the listed ski resorts suffer from overcrowding. If anything, ticket prices during peak times are too _low_. There's just too much demand.

69 points by CGMthrowaway 2mo ago

ksudb 2mo ago

[dead]

That was a very interesting read. I've always wondered about the details around the contract between the big ski resorts and the NFS, fun to read the actual permit. Ikon and Vail seem to be a duopoly and the geographical limitations inherent of a ski resort make the free-market argument hard to believe - you can't just open up a new resort next to breck or vail and charge lower rates. I was a long time epic/ikon pass holder - I didn't buy one last year, and I bought a smaller resort's season pass directly this year. Let it snow!

eru 2mo ago
> the geographical limitations inherent of a ski resort make the free-market argument hard to believe That's a bit of a weird argument? It's a bit like saying that while you are inside a Walmart, they have a monopoly on selling you stuff. Yes, that's true. But surely the relevant competition for ski resorts happens before you book your vacation?
- markdown 2mo ago
  What if Vail owns all the ski resorts?
  - eru 2mo ago
    Go to the beach? Owning a ski resort is no different than owning any other desirable property: real estate has a local monopoly. You recover that via property taxes (or land value taxes).
    - brainwad 2mo ago
      The beach? In winter? The actual thing that skiiers in NA do now is fly to Europe or Japan, where Vail has not yet ruined skiing.
      - eru 2mo ago
        Summer vacations compete with winter vacations for people's money. You can do fun stuff at the beach even in winter, and the beach was just one example. Thanks for bringing up international competition, too. Btw, just because it's cold in one part of the world, doesn't mean it's cold in another part.
    - hydrogen7800 2mo ago
      "Don't ski" is not a solution to a ski resort monopoly.
      - cucumber3732842 2mo ago
        Yeah, it is. Recreational skiing is one of the purest of luxury goods. There are plenty of other exclusive hobbies that can more than soak up the demand. Bird hunting is basically a straight drop in replacement (expensive travel, expensive equipment, outdoors, etc).
        passivegains 2mo ago
        None of the skiers I know ski because they want to spend a lot of money, they spend a lot of money because they want to ski. (Hauling yourself up a freezing cold mountain might not sound like much fun but they quite enjoy it.) Nothing but skiing will do. None of the hunters I know hunt because they want to spend a lot of money, they spend a lot of money because they want to hunt (birds or otherwise.) (Crouching in a tree or a swamp for hours on end might not sound like much fun but they quite enjoy it.) Nothing but hunting will do. Hobbies are almost never drop in replacements for each other.
        2mo ago
- niwtsol 2mo ago
  That's a fair counter. I think I stretched my usage of "geographical limitations" to include the permitting process and thus new entrants. It would be much easier for someone to build a competitor to the hypothetical Walmart you proposed on the same street, in the same town, somewhere close. Ski resorts need the permit from NFS and they stopped giving those out, so the supply is capped by federal policy.
  - eru 2mo ago
    Yes. Though people usually plan their holiday a bit in advance and are willing to travel, sometimes even globally. Ski resorts also compete with other non-ski holiday destinations.

ramesh31 2mo ago

On the other hand allowing the high window prices and holiday pricing are what drive the ability for these companies to make the massive capital investments that they have, while season pass prices have plummeted for anyone local that actually skis a lot. It's not just rent seeking; a lift ticket today is fundamentally a far superior product to what was being sold in the 70s, and nobody but gapers are paying full retail. Let them subsidize it for us I say.

fchicken 2mo ago
Not true. If you're on vacation looking to ski for 3 days, you're right in the crosshairs of the ski resort's price model, and you're not getting around it. I also don't see how the product is superior to what was offered prior
- smelendez 2mo ago
  This is an issue with all kinds of products and services, from residential university education to cars to restaurant food. Expensive options with lots of extras that not everybody wants—and some may actively dislike—replace broadly affordable options with fewer bells and whistles. Everyone is catering to the whales and, thanks in part to our robust lending industries, trying to convince the minnows that they can be a whale too.
  - CalRobert 2mo ago
    It's an issue with inflation calculation too. Sure, product X (house, car, whatever) is twice as big, but now it also costs twice as much - can we really say that doesn't represent inflation when the smaller, cheaper version is no longer being made?
    - smelendez 2mo ago
      Yes, exactly. Same issue with cellphones: They’re more powerful and have better cameras, but many people are paying more to use the same apps they used a decade ago, even though inflation numbers say they’re getting a better deal.

fchicken 2mo ago

Wow.

zombot 2mo ago

There is federal lift ticket regulation, but the internet is the wild west. That's some irony.

pxx 2mo ago

All of this text complaining about prices rising faster than other goods, but many of the listed ski resorts suffer from overcrowding. If anything, ticket prices during peak times are too _low_. There's just too much demand.