4 ms·

I'm curious. Do you mean spoiled during the production process (ie was inedible to begin with) or spoiled in storage (ie was edible at time of purchase)?

nomel 2mo ago
Since fermentation is involved, I don't think there's a clear line between the two.
- fc417fc802 2mo ago
  Fermentation is traditionally a process for preserving things. Provided it's carried out correctly the result will often be shelf stable for quite some time. Another important aspect is that if something does contaminate it there will usually be obvious evidence. I was curious if this was an inherently dangerous dish or if locally a lack of effective regulation of industry was to blame. It sounds like it really is unsafe to at least some extent.
dkbrk 2mo ago
Either can happen. The root cause is growth of Burkholderia gladioli [0] on certain foods rich in specific fatty acids, which include coconut and corn. This can happen during the fermentation process of fermented coconut and corn products if there's Burkholderia gladioli contamination and the pH, salinity and temperature aren't controlled to prevent its growth, but it is also possible for Burkholderia gladioli to contaminate food containing coconut or corn after it has been produced and produce bongkrek acid while it is being stored (e.g. [1], which is where I first learned about this). Bongkrek acid [2] is odorless, tasteless and is not destroyed by cooking. Food can show no signs of spoilage and contain a lethal dose, though fermented products that were contaminated during production might show differences in color, texture and smell if the Burkholderi out-competed the normal fermentation process. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burkholderia_gladioli https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burkholderia_gladioli [1]: https://youtu.be/yXnSYfv6bCA?si=7DTW4J0ahMoWUuLd https://youtu.be/yXnSYfv6bCA?si=7DTW4J0ahMoWUuLd [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bongkrek_acid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bongkrek_acid [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempeh#Tempe_bongkr%C3%A8k https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempeh#Tempe_bongkr%C3%A8k

nomel 2mo ago

Since fermentation is involved, I don't think there's a clear line between the two.

fc417fc802 2mo ago
Fermentation is traditionally a process for preserving things. Provided it's carried out correctly the result will often be shelf stable for quite some time. Another important aspect is that if something does contaminate it there will usually be obvious evidence. I was curious if this was an inherently dangerous dish or if locally a lack of effective regulation of industry was to blame. It sounds like it really is unsafe to at least some extent.

dkbrk 2mo ago

Either can happen. The root cause is growth of Burkholderia gladioli [0] on certain foods rich in specific fatty acids, which include coconut and corn. This can happen during the fermentation process of fermented coconut and corn products if there's Burkholderia gladioli contamination and the pH, salinity and temperature aren't controlled to prevent its growth, but it is also possible for Burkholderia gladioli to contaminate food containing coconut or corn after it has been produced and produce bongkrek acid while it is being stored (e.g. [1], which is where I first learned about this). Bongkrek acid [2] is odorless, tasteless and is not destroyed by cooking. Food can show no signs of spoilage and contain a lethal dose, though fermented products that were contaminated during production might show differences in color, texture and smell if the Burkholderi out-competed the normal fermentation process. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burkholderia_gladioli https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burkholderia_gladioli [1]: https://youtu.be/yXnSYfv6bCA?si=7DTW4J0ahMoWUuLd https://youtu.be/yXnSYfv6bCA?si=7DTW4J0ahMoWUuLd [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bongkrek_acid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bongkrek_acid [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempeh#Tempe_bongkr%C3%A8k https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempeh#Tempe_bongkr%C3%A8k