4 ms·

Is it just a matter of incentives by the government in indonesia? Like is it that bomb fishing in indonesia is incentivized because of, for example, profit marg

by ghm2199 1mo ago

Is it just a matter of incentives by the government in indonesia? Like is it that bomb fishing in indonesia is incentivized because of, for example, profit margins in fishing vs say tourism? I know you mentioned Indonesia never got the yellow card it should have and that certainly creates less incentives for them to straighten their act. But I am trying to understand if the government is still largely to blame or not?

wraptile 1mo ago
> But I am trying to understand if the government is still largely to blame or not? all blast fishing is a failure of governance so I'd say yes but the fishing cultures here in SEA are so different from anywhere else in the world so it's very hard to govern without strong central body. Lots of cultural, religious, poverty and spiritual stuff mixed into all of that which really complicates things. IMO Thailand has a much stronger centralized government and just better geography to make enforcement easier. It's mostly mainland with coastlines while Indonesia is mostly islands which are notoriously difficult to govern. So to answer your question, it's probably just that incentives in Thailand go much further due to all of these variables.
- markdown 1mo ago
  While it's hard to regulate fishing when your country is made up of endless islands, it's quite easy to regulate dynamite. So no, I don't think the number of islands is an excuse. In Fiji, for example, no fisherman could get dynamite if they wanted it. The only way to get that is if you run a (very heavily regulated) mine, or a quarry, and you'd have to account for every blast.
  - lmz 1mo ago
    Does it have to be dynamite or are other, improvised explosives possible?
    - floam 1mo ago
      The article mentioned fertilizer - that’s not straightforward to control and precisely account for.
    - chasd00 1mo ago
      Ammonia nitrate (fertilizer) + diesel + a blasting cap is what was used in the Oklahoma City bombing iirc.
  - cm2012 1mo ago
    The fishermen don't use regular dynamite. They make their own with easily available agricultural and mining chemicals, which are impossible to ban on the island without other worse effects.
  - huurtehoog 1mo ago
    If you think islanders are not adept at contraband, you should read more, or better, history books.
markdown 1mo ago
Indonesia gets a free pass for an ongoing genocide, so it's not surprising nobody cares about them breaking coral.
- SEJeff 1mo ago
  Care to explain for those of us unaware?
  - markdown 1mo ago
    The island of New Guinea is one of the most biodiverse places on earth. It hosts roughly 7% of all global species, with 60% of them being endemic. Peopled by Melanesians, it's one of the most linguistically diverse places on earth, with over 1000 languages. The east of the island became independent (from Australia) in 1975 and is now Papua New Guinea. Meanwhile, the western half was handed over to Indonesian control following the end of Dutch rule, a status formalized through the controversial, UN-backed 1969 "Act of Free Choice" in which a tiny, handpicked group of local leaders voted under military duress to integrate with Indonesia. Indonesia has been conducting a decades-long genocide of the people of West Papua. It gets little press because it's an ethnic cleansing slow-burn. Slaughter the Papuan people, replace them with Javanese, then bulldoze their forests to grow palm oil. For more, read the abstract (or the entire paper) here: https://researchers.westernsydney.edu.au/en/publications/forgotten-genocide-in-indonesia-mass-violence-resource-exploitati/ https://researchers.westernsydney.edu.au/en/publications/for... There's a timeline of the history of the "conflict" here: https://www.papuapartners.org/west-papua https://www.papuapartners.org/west-papua https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-12-01/west-papuan-separatists-provisional-government-to-oust-indonesia/12936404 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-12-01/west-papuan-separatis...
    - roster1198 1mo ago
      It's ignored because Indonesia annexed West Papua when it was a Soviet client. When it annexed East Timor later, it had switched to being a US client. So this second annexation received a great deal of bad press - including, critically, the Australian far left, whose campaign led to Australia pressuring Indonesia to let it intervene militarily in 1999.
21asdffdsa12 1mo ago
Its a cultural- my family first, the rest of the world distant second. Seems to get you desert wherever that culture goes.

by ghm2199 1mo ago

wraptile 1mo ago

> But I am trying to understand if the government is still largely to blame or not? all blast fishing is a failure of governance so I'd say yes but the fishing cultures here in SEA are so different from anywhere else in the world so it's very hard to govern without strong central body. Lots of cultural, religious, poverty and spiritual stuff mixed into all of that which really complicates things. IMO Thailand has a much stronger centralized government and just better geography to make enforcement easier. It's mostly mainland with coastlines while Indonesia is mostly islands which are notoriously difficult to govern. So to answer your question, it's probably just that incentives in Thailand go much further due to all of these variables.

markdown 1mo ago
While it's hard to regulate fishing when your country is made up of endless islands, it's quite easy to regulate dynamite. So no, I don't think the number of islands is an excuse. In Fiji, for example, no fisherman could get dynamite if they wanted it. The only way to get that is if you run a (very heavily regulated) mine, or a quarry, and you'd have to account for every blast.
- lmz 1mo ago
  Does it have to be dynamite or are other, improvised explosives possible?
  - floam 1mo ago
    The article mentioned fertilizer - that’s not straightforward to control and precisely account for.
  - chasd00 1mo ago
    Ammonia nitrate (fertilizer) + diesel + a blasting cap is what was used in the Oklahoma City bombing iirc.
- cm2012 1mo ago
  The fishermen don't use regular dynamite. They make their own with easily available agricultural and mining chemicals, which are impossible to ban on the island without other worse effects.
- huurtehoog 1mo ago
  If you think islanders are not adept at contraband, you should read more, or better, history books.

markdown 1mo ago

Indonesia gets a free pass for an ongoing genocide, so it's not surprising nobody cares about them breaking coral.

SEJeff 1mo ago
Care to explain for those of us unaware?
- markdown 1mo ago
  The island of New Guinea is one of the most biodiverse places on earth. It hosts roughly 7% of all global species, with 60% of them being endemic. Peopled by Melanesians, it's one of the most linguistically diverse places on earth, with over 1000 languages. The east of the island became independent (from Australia) in 1975 and is now Papua New Guinea. Meanwhile, the western half was handed over to Indonesian control following the end of Dutch rule, a status formalized through the controversial, UN-backed 1969 "Act of Free Choice" in which a tiny, handpicked group of local leaders voted under military duress to integrate with Indonesia. Indonesia has been conducting a decades-long genocide of the people of West Papua. It gets little press because it's an ethnic cleansing slow-burn. Slaughter the Papuan people, replace them with Javanese, then bulldoze their forests to grow palm oil. For more, read the abstract (or the entire paper) here: https://researchers.westernsydney.edu.au/en/publications/forgotten-genocide-in-indonesia-mass-violence-resource-exploitati/ https://researchers.westernsydney.edu.au/en/publications/for... There's a timeline of the history of the "conflict" here: https://www.papuapartners.org/west-papua https://www.papuapartners.org/west-papua https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-12-01/west-papuan-separatists-provisional-government-to-oust-indonesia/12936404 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-12-01/west-papuan-separatis...
  - roster1198 1mo ago
    It's ignored because Indonesia annexed West Papua when it was a Soviet client. When it annexed East Timor later, it had switched to being a US client. So this second annexation received a great deal of bad press - including, critically, the Australian far left, whose campaign led to Australia pressuring Indonesia to let it intervene militarily in 1999.

21asdffdsa12 1mo ago

Its a cultural- my family first, the rest of the world distant second. Seems to get you desert wherever that culture goes.