6 ms·

Thoughts On The President's Speech Last Night

22 points by babyshake 18y ago

mynameishere 18y ago
I was also "limpressed". Nice coinage there.
indiejade 18y ago
2. I read the speech in its entirety twice and did not find one mention of immigration. The President says we owe our prosperity to our ingenuity and tenacity. I think that's true but a lot of that ingenuity and tenacity came from first and second generation immigrants. If we are not prepared to open up our borders more broadly to the best and brightest and toughest in this world, all the rest is just words We have a president whose father wasn't even born in the US. I think that speaks for itself. The population of the US has doubled since 1943 or something (source: http://www.pbs.org/saf/1304/features/raven2.htm http://www.pbs.org/saf/1304/features/raven2.htm). I love diversity and am all for opening up our borders, but let's concentrate on giving the immigrants who are already here lawful employment with ethical compensation first.
- astine 18y ago
  Personally, I think that it makes the absence more glaring, though to be honest, I think that the immigration situation is a little more nuanced than AVC makes it out to be.
thras 18y ago
The immigration comment is moronic. The reason that our borders aren't wider open to the world's "best and brightest" is 2-fold. 1) Current American immigration is saturated by the world's worst and dumbest. Low-IQ immigrants contribute marginally to GDP and are a huge drain on social resources. Look at the modern equivalent of white flight going on in California and what it's doing to state budgets. Insane family reunification policies exacerbate this. The fix: build a fence on our southern border, and we'll have a lot more capacity to import skilled labor. 2) Europe is unfortunately reproducing at low levels (just like WASPs in America, in case you didn't know). So our historical sources of quality immigrants are running low. However East Asians are even higher IQ (perhaps less creative), and there are plenty of them. Oh, and if you are getting ready to call me a racist (I'm not), I'd like you to state your magic means for getting even 2nd and 3rd-generation Mexican immigrants to graduate high school. Because we might want to figure that out before importing many more.
- clintjhill 18y ago
  Read more about No Child Left Behind. Pay attention to what it requires schools to do in order to receive funding. With that information look at what schools are receiving as products (children). When 200 immigrant children get to your school and are ESL, can't pass tests and can't get the support at home because Dad is working 2 jobs and Mom is probably still in Mexico, you quickly realize that you have a serious problem. So then you request more books, more ESL programs and reading curriculum. Then the state and federal agencies say "sorry". You're under-performing. Get kids to pass more tests and you'll get money. There is no magic means. Simply lack of appreciation for children from other countries compound with a reversed process of quality.
  - thras 18y ago
    The problem predates NCLB by several decades. Besides, why do East Asians and Europeans do so well under similar circumstances?
    - ardit33 18y ago
      European and Asians don't teach by the lowest denominator!! Not everybody is born with the same abilities to learn. Sure, you can teach people, but the slowest kids will take longer to learn. If you teach by the lowest denominator, you slow down the smart kids, the ones that will make great impacts in the economy in the future. I am south-east european. Back at home everybody starts at the same footing. Same books, same education. By 5th grade, while people are still taught the same curricular, the brightests kids are bunched together in classes. Assuming there are 200 kid in a grade, they are divided in classrooms of 30-35 (teachers come to class, and students stay in the same class with the same peers), usually named A,B,C,D ...etc, witch a main teacher responsible for each class. Example MySchool 5th A, gives a you the exact placement of a student. Why it is unofficial (not writen in policy) by the 5th the best students are usually placed in the A, B, classes, the average ones in the C and D classes, and the ones that are there just for a formal education in the rest of the classes. There is some diversity introduced also, (for those'd kids that try hard, (and whose parents care) they are still placed in higher level classes. It is the same curricula, same books, maybe same teachers, but the evnviroment is different. In the higher level classes students face more competition (as there are lots of smart people), are challenged more to learn etc. The system is setup in a way that it is easier to get a 5 (the lowest passing grade), but it is really hard to get a 10 (the highest grade). Therefore, while you teach everything you can, the smart people are not artificially left behind by being taught by the lowest common denominator. Also, a huge difference is that all sciences are taught, By force. You can't choose between physics or biology or chemistry, you are forced to learn them all. (biology is introduced in 6th grade, and chemistry in 8). The thought is that you have to try everything and have a taste of all sciences (and know the basics), so you know what you like to do in the future (in college) The only thing you get to choose as optional is the SECOND foreign language you want to learn. When I came in the States, i finished my last year of high-school on a average american high-school, and I could run circles around most american students. Even in AP classes! Amazing on how even a poor country like mine (Albania) can do some much better in basic education. I remember between 92-93 I had to learn in a cold class with no glasses on the windows, during winter, and we had to put paper on them, and all try to bunch up as much as possible together, around the wooden stove. Amazing, yet there were so many bright students produced by that school. 1. Teachers cared. 2. Parents cared a lot more (education = future in their yes). 3. Curricula was heavy on science, and taught as much as it could on students and not on the lowest common denominator.
kubrick 18y ago
1) "The USA will emerge stronger than before" That's a tall order. I'd settle for we will recover... I wonder if that's a promise the President should be making. I took this to mean we'd be stronger in the sense that we wouldn't be so vulnerable to economic disaster (because we won't be tempting fate by overextending ourselves). But still, that which does not kill me makes me stronger. 2) I read the speech in its entirety twice and did not find one mention of immigration... I think that's true but a lot of that ingenuity and tenacity came from first and second generation immigrants. That we are all the children of immigrants is a given, isn't it? Or in many cases, immigrants ourselves. It's such a given that I don't think it warranted direct mention. Red herring. 4) Hardest working people on earth? C'mon Barack. Don't bullshit us. Go back and read number two. What do you know about the European work ethic? They think we're slaves to ourselves. You could argue that many Asian countries are harder-working, but I'd argue that they are not as innovative. Hard work + innovation = America (at its best). (Also, remember: Barack is doing a certain amount of cheerleading here. That's part of his job.) 7) A new accountability for money spent saving banks. Barack said "I intend to hold these banks fully accountable for the assitance they receive". Good luck with that. Money is fungible. Maybe, but cynicism never solved a problem. Better to try and fail somewhat than to take the previous administration's approach and let it be play money. Watching Pelosi and Biden behind the President was distracting and a reminder that as well intenioned as Obama is, he's got an impossible job. I'll say! What was with that? You're trying to pay attention to what Obama is saying, and Pelosi keeps playing with her hair. WTF, is this national-level speechmaking or what?
- msluyter 18y ago
  Regarding the "hardest working" question, this chart shows we're #3 in terms of total hours worked, behind Japan and Australia: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/lab_hou_wor-labor-hours-worked http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/lab_hou_wor-labor-hours-wo... That's from 2003, so it may have changed.
  - LogicHoleFlaw 18y ago
    Japan is infamous for "butt-in-chair" as a measure of productivity. The stereotype of the middle-aged salaryman coming home late at night just to leave again in the morning is rooted in reality.
cturner 18y ago
American politics is not hacker news! People can get this rubbish on all the other news democracy sites! Please leave it out of hacker news.
- fuzzmeister 18y ago
  The intent of this analysis is to look at the elements of his speech and his plan that relate to the economy, which I think is a very relevant topic for the entrepreneur types around here.
fuzzmeister 18y ago
His multiple mentions of how entrepreneurs will help lead us out of the recession and build the technologies of tomorrow were very refreshing. He gets it.
DavidSJ 18y ago
Scariest line of the night: And dropping out of high school is no longer an option. It’s not just quitting on yourself, it’s quitting on your country. Some of us consider dropping out of high school the best decision we ever made, and the right to do so a basic American freedom.
- SystemOut 18y ago
  What makes that scary? Did he say he was going to jail you if you drop out of high school? All he did was tell people to finish high school and that they should view that part of their responsibility as Americans is to get an education and support themselves. Do you think he should tell people to drop out of high school? Speeches don't target individuals, they target groups. Just because you may or may not be an exceptional case doesn't mean the line is scary.
  - DavidSJ 18y ago
    When the head of state says that something is "not an option", that's not just a friendly suggestion. And when he frames the issue in terms of you "letting down your country", it makes me feel like he thinks my life belongs to the country, as opposed to myself. And by the way, I did drop out of high school, at 15, and was threatened with things that were fairly similar in character to jail. So I don't think it's not credible that the penalties could very well be jail time. We live in an era which many people seem to see as post-historical -- that is, we've found all the answers and we know the right way for people to live their lives, so we no longer need to protect the rights of individuals to live weird lifestyles, since doing so just constitutes a denial of the manifestly correct path.

22 points by babyshake 18y ago

I was also "limpressed". Nice coinage there.

2. I read the speech in its entirety twice and did not find one mention of immigration. The President says we owe our prosperity to our ingenuity and tenacity. I think that's true but a lot of that ingenuity and tenacity came from first and second generation immigrants. If we are not prepared to open up our borders more broadly to the best and brightest and toughest in this world, all the rest is just words We have a president whose father wasn't even born in the US. I think that speaks for itself. The population of the US has doubled since 1943 or something (source: http://www.pbs.org/saf/1304/features/raven2.htm http://www.pbs.org/saf/1304/features/raven2.htm). I love diversity and am all for opening up our borders, but let's concentrate on giving the immigrants who are already here lawful employment with ethical compensation first.

astine 18y ago
Personally, I think that it makes the absence more glaring, though to be honest, I think that the immigration situation is a little more nuanced than AVC makes it out to be.

thras 18y ago

The immigration comment is moronic. The reason that our borders aren't wider open to the world's "best and brightest" is 2-fold. 1) Current American immigration is saturated by the world's worst and dumbest. Low-IQ immigrants contribute marginally to GDP and are a huge drain on social resources. Look at the modern equivalent of white flight going on in California and what it's doing to state budgets. Insane family reunification policies exacerbate this. The fix: build a fence on our southern border, and we'll have a lot more capacity to import skilled labor. 2) Europe is unfortunately reproducing at low levels (just like WASPs in America, in case you didn't know). So our historical sources of quality immigrants are running low. However East Asians are even higher IQ (perhaps less creative), and there are plenty of them. Oh, and if you are getting ready to call me a racist (I'm not), I'd like you to state your magic means for getting even 2nd and 3rd-generation Mexican immigrants to graduate high school. Because we might want to figure that out before importing many more.

clintjhill 18y ago
Read more about No Child Left Behind. Pay attention to what it requires schools to do in order to receive funding. With that information look at what schools are receiving as products (children). When 200 immigrant children get to your school and are ESL, can't pass tests and can't get the support at home because Dad is working 2 jobs and Mom is probably still in Mexico, you quickly realize that you have a serious problem. So then you request more books, more ESL programs and reading curriculum. Then the state and federal agencies say "sorry". You're under-performing. Get kids to pass more tests and you'll get money. There is no magic means. Simply lack of appreciation for children from other countries compound with a reversed process of quality.
- thras 18y ago
  The problem predates NCLB by several decades. Besides, why do East Asians and Europeans do so well under similar circumstances?
  - ardit33 18y ago
    European and Asians don't teach by the lowest denominator!! Not everybody is born with the same abilities to learn. Sure, you can teach people, but the slowest kids will take longer to learn. If you teach by the lowest denominator, you slow down the smart kids, the ones that will make great impacts in the economy in the future. I am south-east european. Back at home everybody starts at the same footing. Same books, same education. By 5th grade, while people are still taught the same curricular, the brightests kids are bunched together in classes. Assuming there are 200 kid in a grade, they are divided in classrooms of 30-35 (teachers come to class, and students stay in the same class with the same peers), usually named A,B,C,D ...etc, witch a main teacher responsible for each class. Example MySchool 5th A, gives a you the exact placement of a student. Why it is unofficial (not writen in policy) by the 5th the best students are usually placed in the A, B, classes, the average ones in the C and D classes, and the ones that are there just for a formal education in the rest of the classes. There is some diversity introduced also, (for those'd kids that try hard, (and whose parents care) they are still placed in higher level classes. It is the same curricula, same books, maybe same teachers, but the evnviroment is different. In the higher level classes students face more competition (as there are lots of smart people), are challenged more to learn etc. The system is setup in a way that it is easier to get a 5 (the lowest passing grade), but it is really hard to get a 10 (the highest grade). Therefore, while you teach everything you can, the smart people are not artificially left behind by being taught by the lowest common denominator. Also, a huge difference is that all sciences are taught, By force. You can't choose between physics or biology or chemistry, you are forced to learn them all. (biology is introduced in 6th grade, and chemistry in 8). The thought is that you have to try everything and have a taste of all sciences (and know the basics), so you know what you like to do in the future (in college) The only thing you get to choose as optional is the SECOND foreign language you want to learn. When I came in the States, i finished my last year of high-school on a average american high-school, and I could run circles around most american students. Even in AP classes! Amazing on how even a poor country like mine (Albania) can do some much better in basic education. I remember between 92-93 I had to learn in a cold class with no glasses on the windows, during winter, and we had to put paper on them, and all try to bunch up as much as possible together, around the wooden stove. Amazing, yet there were so many bright students produced by that school. 1. Teachers cared. 2. Parents cared a lot more (education = future in their yes). 3. Curricula was heavy on science, and taught as much as it could on students and not on the lowest common denominator.

kubrick 18y ago

1) "The USA will emerge stronger than before" That's a tall order. I'd settle for we will recover... I wonder if that's a promise the President should be making. I took this to mean we'd be stronger in the sense that we wouldn't be so vulnerable to economic disaster (because we won't be tempting fate by overextending ourselves). But still, that which does not kill me makes me stronger. 2) I read the speech in its entirety twice and did not find one mention of immigration... I think that's true but a lot of that ingenuity and tenacity came from first and second generation immigrants. That we are all the children of immigrants is a given, isn't it? Or in many cases, immigrants ourselves. It's such a given that I don't think it warranted direct mention. Red herring. 4) Hardest working people on earth? C'mon Barack. Don't bullshit us. Go back and read number two. What do you know about the European work ethic? They think we're slaves to ourselves. You could argue that many Asian countries are harder-working, but I'd argue that they are not as innovative. Hard work + innovation = America (at its best). (Also, remember: Barack is doing a certain amount of cheerleading here. That's part of his job.) 7) A new accountability for money spent saving banks. Barack said "I intend to hold these banks fully accountable for the assitance they receive". Good luck with that. Money is fungible. Maybe, but cynicism never solved a problem. Better to try and fail somewhat than to take the previous administration's approach and let it be play money. Watching Pelosi and Biden behind the President was distracting and a reminder that as well intenioned as Obama is, he's got an impossible job. I'll say! What was with that? You're trying to pay attention to what Obama is saying, and Pelosi keeps playing with her hair. WTF, is this national-level speechmaking or what?

msluyter 18y ago
Regarding the "hardest working" question, this chart shows we're #3 in terms of total hours worked, behind Japan and Australia: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/lab_hou_wor-labor-hours-worked http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/lab_hou_wor-labor-hours-wo... That's from 2003, so it may have changed.
- LogicHoleFlaw 18y ago
  Japan is infamous for "butt-in-chair" as a measure of productivity. The stereotype of the middle-aged salaryman coming home late at night just to leave again in the morning is rooted in reality.

cturner 18y ago

American politics is not hacker news! People can get this rubbish on all the other news democracy sites! Please leave it out of hacker news.

fuzzmeister 18y ago
The intent of this analysis is to look at the elements of his speech and his plan that relate to the economy, which I think is a very relevant topic for the entrepreneur types around here.

fuzzmeister 18y ago

His multiple mentions of how entrepreneurs will help lead us out of the recession and build the technologies of tomorrow were very refreshing. He gets it.

DavidSJ 18y ago

Scariest line of the night: And dropping out of high school is no longer an option. It’s not just quitting on yourself, it’s quitting on your country. Some of us consider dropping out of high school the best decision we ever made, and the right to do so a basic American freedom.

SystemOut 18y ago
What makes that scary? Did he say he was going to jail you if you drop out of high school? All he did was tell people to finish high school and that they should view that part of their responsibility as Americans is to get an education and support themselves. Do you think he should tell people to drop out of high school? Speeches don't target individuals, they target groups. Just because you may or may not be an exceptional case doesn't mean the line is scary.
- DavidSJ 18y ago
  When the head of state says that something is "not an option", that's not just a friendly suggestion. And when he frames the issue in terms of you "letting down your country", it makes me feel like he thinks my life belongs to the country, as opposed to myself. And by the way, I did drop out of high school, at 15, and was threatened with things that were fairly similar in character to jail. So I don't think it's not credible that the penalties could very well be jail time. We live in an era which many people seem to see as post-historical -- that is, we've found all the answers and we know the right way for people to live their lives, so we no longer need to protect the rights of individuals to live weird lifestyles, since doing so just constitutes a denial of the manifestly correct path.