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Well, then you can read the actual serious intellectuals and researchers like Chomsky, for example. Read "Manufacturing Consent", no ufo stuff there just the re

Well, then you can read the actual serious intellectuals and researchers like Chomsky, for example. Read "Manufacturing Consent", no ufo stuff there just the real deal. There is extensive literature and documentation of what is really going on, but its not going to be part of the narrative, you have to look for it. Assange's new book is another example. There are tons of authors, just follow the thread. Note: HN, any other reading material you would recommend to me or to stfu?

rayiner 14y ago
Chomsky is decidedly not a conspiracy theorist. One of the main points in "Manufacturing Consent" is that you can have a healthy production of propoganda without any conspiratorial relationship between the media and government.
- neumann_alfred 14y ago
  At the same time, Chomsky ain't dumb. Of course powerful people look out for their own interests; that leads to an overlap in goals with other powerful people, and a defensive/paranoid stance towards those you wield power over. Just like a lot of analog clocks hanging on a wall will synchronize, so will they. Does it have to be explicitly expressed and planned to be a conspiracy? Nah. And if people get sorted and filtered based on how well they internalized rationalizations and outright lies, that's your "conspirational relationship" right there. Though "the government" is hardly the driving force here -- have you even read Chomsky? But yes, Chomsky isn't a pussy and Chomsky pays attention. But what he points out are conspiracies in effect, and they are every bit as sinister as some James Bond BS you could come up with; it's just that "none of this is controversial", no paranoia required.
  - rayiner 14y ago
    > Does it have to be explicitly expressed and planned to be a conspiracy? That's pretty much the definition of "conspiracy." > And if people get sorted and filtered based on how well they internalized rationalizations and outright lies, that's your "conspirational relationship" right there. No, that's not a conspiracy. It might be something else, but it's not a conspiracy. > Though "the government" is hardly the driving force here -- have you even read Chomsky? I read "Manufacturing Consent."
    - neumann_alfred 14y ago
      "No, that's not a conspiracy. It might be something else, but it's not a conspiracy." It has the same effect as one. And "conspiracy theory" is usually used to wave away bringing the actual dynamics up. If the "conspirators" aren't even aware of it that just makes it worse, so how is "it's something different" any solace? Yeah, it's the same thing, but worse. It's like a conspiracy, but it requires intervention because it's not one, and insight will not end it. "I read "Manufacturing Consent." Which is about big business routing around democracy as a potential problem via propaganda. Here's a quote from the man I transcribed from him speaking: What has been created by this half century of massive corporate propaganda is what's called "anti-politics". So that anything that goes wrong, you blame the government. Well okay, there's plenty to blame the government about, but the government is the one institution that people can change... the one institution that you can affect without institutional change. That's exactly why all the anger and fear has been directed at the government. The government has a defect - it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect - they're pure tyrannies. So therefore you want to keep corporations invisible, and focus all anger on the government. So if you don't like something, you know, your wages are going down, you blame the government. Not blame the guys in the Fortune 500, because you don't read the Fortune 500. You just read what they tell you in the newspapers... so you don't read about the dazzling profits and the stupendous dizz, and the wages going down and so on, all you know is that the bad government is doing something, so let's get mad at the government.
polshaw 14y ago
Not reading material as such, but i feel the need to shout out democracynow.org for some independent, intelligent news (Chomsky is often a guest). PS they are seeking donations!

rayiner 14y ago

Chomsky is decidedly not a conspiracy theorist. One of the main points in "Manufacturing Consent" is that you can have a healthy production of propoganda without any conspiratorial relationship between the media and government.

neumann_alfred 14y ago
At the same time, Chomsky ain't dumb. Of course powerful people look out for their own interests; that leads to an overlap in goals with other powerful people, and a defensive/paranoid stance towards those you wield power over. Just like a lot of analog clocks hanging on a wall will synchronize, so will they. Does it have to be explicitly expressed and planned to be a conspiracy? Nah. And if people get sorted and filtered based on how well they internalized rationalizations and outright lies, that's your "conspirational relationship" right there. Though "the government" is hardly the driving force here -- have you even read Chomsky? But yes, Chomsky isn't a pussy and Chomsky pays attention. But what he points out are conspiracies in effect, and they are every bit as sinister as some James Bond BS you could come up with; it's just that "none of this is controversial", no paranoia required.
- rayiner 14y ago
  > Does it have to be explicitly expressed and planned to be a conspiracy? That's pretty much the definition of "conspiracy." > And if people get sorted and filtered based on how well they internalized rationalizations and outright lies, that's your "conspirational relationship" right there. No, that's not a conspiracy. It might be something else, but it's not a conspiracy. > Though "the government" is hardly the driving force here -- have you even read Chomsky? I read "Manufacturing Consent."
  - neumann_alfred 14y ago
    "No, that's not a conspiracy. It might be something else, but it's not a conspiracy." It has the same effect as one. And "conspiracy theory" is usually used to wave away bringing the actual dynamics up. If the "conspirators" aren't even aware of it that just makes it worse, so how is "it's something different" any solace? Yeah, it's the same thing, but worse. It's like a conspiracy, but it requires intervention because it's not one, and insight will not end it. "I read "Manufacturing Consent." Which is about big business routing around democracy as a potential problem via propaganda. Here's a quote from the man I transcribed from him speaking: What has been created by this half century of massive corporate propaganda is what's called "anti-politics". So that anything that goes wrong, you blame the government. Well okay, there's plenty to blame the government about, but the government is the one institution that people can change... the one institution that you can affect without institutional change. That's exactly why all the anger and fear has been directed at the government. The government has a defect - it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect - they're pure tyrannies. So therefore you want to keep corporations invisible, and focus all anger on the government. So if you don't like something, you know, your wages are going down, you blame the government. Not blame the guys in the Fortune 500, because you don't read the Fortune 500. You just read what they tell you in the newspapers... so you don't read about the dazzling profits and the stupendous dizz, and the wages going down and so on, all you know is that the bad government is doing something, so let's get mad at the government.

polshaw 14y ago

Not reading material as such, but i feel the need to shout out democracynow.org for some independent, intelligent news (Chomsky is often a guest). PS they are seeking donations!