5 ms·

> Matrix reinvented the wheel as a rubber-tyred metro. On paper, it provides real benefits, such as climbing steeper inclines, which are then used to aggressive

by dewey 1mo ago

> Matrix reinvented the wheel as a rubber-tyred metro. On paper, it provides real benefits, such as climbing steeper inclines, which are then used to aggressively advertise and lobby local governments to buy in. But in the end, the municipality gets locked into a single vendor. I stumble upon Matrix from time to time, but Jabber I haven't really seen anywhere in the past decade after my internet friends moved to IRC. Are there any bigger communities still using it? Back in the days Facebook Messenger was backed by it, so maybe there's still some bigger entity using it as a backbone for something?

inputmice 1mo ago
XMPP these days often gets used as a friends-and-family style messenger (Think WhatsApp, iMessage, Signal replacement) rather than something communities would use (Discord/IRC). A lot of users of XMPP are also out of the public eye. NATO, police forces and intelligence agencies use it. The community style channels are supported though and a search engine for them can be found here: https://search.jabber.network/channels/1 https://search.jabber.network/channels/1
- Semaphor 1mo ago
  Yeah, I use it as a messenger for my wife and I.
- AlecSchueler 1mo ago
  > NATO, police forces and intelligence agencies use it Is there anywhere to read more about this?
  - liotier 1mo ago
    The existence of "XEP-0365: Server to Server communication over STANAG 5066 ARQ" suggests military usage. Isode advertises XMPP as "The NATO Standard for instant messaging" (https://www.isode.com/secure-xmpp/ https://www.isode.com/secure-xmpp/) and it is one of their core offerings. I remember seeing NATO command posts using IRC long ago - makes sense because it is ultra light, and therefore usable on extremely low bitrate degraded links... XMPP seems to be the successor for that purpose. https://www.sigidwiki.com/wiki/XMPP_trials https://www.sigidwiki.com/wiki/XMPP_trials says "On shortwave, you can see the military use this protocol. They are known for using MIL 188-110A Serial HF waveform (fixed 600bps/S) and 6-bit code clear text with dual bursts of STANAG 4539 and STANAG-5066 as for XMPP Multi-User Chat (MUC) messages, over a bandwidth of 34 kHz. Multi-User Chat (MUC) is a central service for military communication. [..] XMPP is widely used for military deployments, where operation over constrained and degraded networks is often essential, particularly for tactical operation"
    - dewey 1mo ago
      Thanks! That was exactly the kind of "hidden usage" I was interested in as it seems to not be publicly used by a lot of people these days (As you can see by the user numbers on https://search.jabber.network/channels/1 https://search.jabber.network/channels/1).
      - account42 1mo ago
        Spam is an issue which also drives people off public federation.
  - mvdwoord 1mo ago
    You can find some clues in the published service catalog of the NATO Communications and Information Agency (NCIA) here: https://www.ncia.nato.int/about-us/service-portfolio/customer-area https://www.ncia.nato.int/about-us/service-portfolio/custome... It seems their "JChat" application is based on XMPP.
svyatoslavpavl 1mo ago
Jitsi Meet still runs on XMPP, Prosody handles the signaling. WhatsApp also started life as a patched ejabberd.
- iamcalledrob 1mo ago
  WhatsApp is still based on XMPP unless things have changed a lot recently.
  - alex1138 1mo ago
    I don't consider WA a product. I don't consider it a viable product. Post-2014/Zuckerberg. Who cares if it's XMPP, it didn't federate
    - deleted 1mo ago
      [deleted]
    - account42 1mo ago
      Unfortunately it's the de-facto messaging app for normies here, most of whom won't be willing to install another app for just that one weirdo.
  - tensor 1mo ago
    What about their signal integration? https://signal.org/blog/whatsapp-complete/ https://signal.org/blog/whatsapp-complete/
    - pixelschubsi 1mo ago
      The open protocol variant of that is called OMEMO. Same double ratchet and implemented using Signal's library (the same as used by WhatsApp) in many XMPP clients
      - tcfhgj 1mo ago
        > the same as used by WhatsApp source? wouldn't that be a license violation?
opan 1mo ago
XMPP is somewhat popular on the fediverse, especially the Pleroma side. If you meet people there who want to chat elsewhere, they likely are on XMPP. Also if you have a Disroot account it comes with XMPP.

by dewey 1mo ago

inputmice 1mo ago

XMPP these days often gets used as a friends-and-family style messenger (Think WhatsApp, iMessage, Signal replacement) rather than something communities would use (Discord/IRC). A lot of users of XMPP are also out of the public eye. NATO, police forces and intelligence agencies use it. The community style channels are supported though and a search engine for them can be found here: https://search.jabber.network/channels/1 https://search.jabber.network/channels/1

Semaphor 1mo ago
Yeah, I use it as a messenger for my wife and I.
AlecSchueler 1mo ago
> NATO, police forces and intelligence agencies use it Is there anywhere to read more about this?
- liotier 1mo ago
  The existence of "XEP-0365: Server to Server communication over STANAG 5066 ARQ" suggests military usage. Isode advertises XMPP as "The NATO Standard for instant messaging" (https://www.isode.com/secure-xmpp/ https://www.isode.com/secure-xmpp/) and it is one of their core offerings. I remember seeing NATO command posts using IRC long ago - makes sense because it is ultra light, and therefore usable on extremely low bitrate degraded links... XMPP seems to be the successor for that purpose. https://www.sigidwiki.com/wiki/XMPP_trials https://www.sigidwiki.com/wiki/XMPP_trials says "On shortwave, you can see the military use this protocol. They are known for using MIL 188-110A Serial HF waveform (fixed 600bps/S) and 6-bit code clear text with dual bursts of STANAG 4539 and STANAG-5066 as for XMPP Multi-User Chat (MUC) messages, over a bandwidth of 34 kHz. Multi-User Chat (MUC) is a central service for military communication. [..] XMPP is widely used for military deployments, where operation over constrained and degraded networks is often essential, particularly for tactical operation"
  - dewey 1mo ago
    Thanks! That was exactly the kind of "hidden usage" I was interested in as it seems to not be publicly used by a lot of people these days (As you can see by the user numbers on https://search.jabber.network/channels/1 https://search.jabber.network/channels/1).
    - account42 1mo ago
      Spam is an issue which also drives people off public federation.
- mvdwoord 1mo ago
  You can find some clues in the published service catalog of the NATO Communications and Information Agency (NCIA) here: https://www.ncia.nato.int/about-us/service-portfolio/customer-area https://www.ncia.nato.int/about-us/service-portfolio/custome... It seems their "JChat" application is based on XMPP.

svyatoslavpavl 1mo ago

Jitsi Meet still runs on XMPP, Prosody handles the signaling. WhatsApp also started life as a patched ejabberd.

iamcalledrob 1mo ago
WhatsApp is still based on XMPP unless things have changed a lot recently.
- alex1138 1mo ago
  I don't consider WA a product. I don't consider it a viable product. Post-2014/Zuckerberg. Who cares if it's XMPP, it didn't federate
  - deleted 1mo ago
    [deleted]
  - account42 1mo ago
    Unfortunately it's the de-facto messaging app for normies here, most of whom won't be willing to install another app for just that one weirdo.
- tensor 1mo ago
  What about their signal integration? https://signal.org/blog/whatsapp-complete/ https://signal.org/blog/whatsapp-complete/
  - pixelschubsi 1mo ago
    The open protocol variant of that is called OMEMO. Same double ratchet and implemented using Signal's library (the same as used by WhatsApp) in many XMPP clients
    - tcfhgj 1mo ago
      > the same as used by WhatsApp source? wouldn't that be a license violation?

opan 1mo ago

XMPP is somewhat popular on the fediverse, especially the Pleroma side. If you meet people there who want to chat elsewhere, they likely are on XMPP. Also if you have a Disroot account it comes with XMPP.