4 ms·

Also, who decides which entities are adversaries? I don't personally consider "China" my adversary. As an American who has to deal with US companies, many of th

Also, who decides which entities are adversaries? I don't personally consider "China" my adversary. As an American who has to deal with US companies, many of them are far more antagonistic to me than a foreign country 10K km away. If "China" decides it doesn't like me, my life really isn't going to change much. If my electric company decides it doesn't like me, I'm in big trouble.

thesmtsolver2 2mo ago
What about Russia and Ukraine?
- lostlogin 2mo ago
  The answer varies depending on the day.
- B1FF_PSUVM 2mo ago
  "Two bald men fighting for a comb", both in demographic collapse and set afire for the usual reasons.
mring33621 2mo ago
Yeah, I don't want China as an adversary. It appears to me that it is a country full of fun, smart and interesting people. And their manufacturing prowess is incredible. I'm into funny electric vehicles and China makes some beauties!
- fleroviumna 2mo ago
  [dead]
lenerdenator 2mo ago
> I don't personally consider "China" my adversary They're not an adversary in the same way that a guy demanding your wallet at knifepoint is, or a company able to cut off your electricity is. China is an adversary in the sense that they're a totalitarian government, who, by the nature of that system, cannot brook any sort of opposition to their ideology, plans, or desires. All within the state, none without. That sort of system cannot exist in harmony with other systems for any extended length of time because doing so will suggest that the powers-that-be in China might not have all of the answers to the human condition. Either you fall in line, or you have to be eliminated. If you're an American used to calling other Americans antagonistic, that's not going to work out well for you over the long run.
- TheDong 2mo ago
  I mean, China's seems to be doing an okay job at coexisting with other countries. Especially when you compare it to the US, where our democracy and capitalism have led us to numerous wars and war-crimes. Like, just this year, we've committed far more breaches of international law than china https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analysis_of_the_2026_Iran_war#Legality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analysis_of_the_2026_Iran_war#... In recent history, we performed dozens of violent coups and destroyed countries in the name of overthrowing communist regimes. China has a totalitarian government, but it's existing more in harmony with the world than the US government has for all of my life, so I don't think you can say that the Chinese government will conflict with other countries while in the same breath implying the US government is better.
  - stirfish 2mo ago
    Kind of an okay job, but they could do better. I might feel differently if I lived in Tibet, Hong Kong, Xinjian, Myanmar, etc.
  - lenerdenator 2mo ago
    You're going to find China's history as wanting as the US's in that regard. Plenty of Chinese arms found their way to theaters of war in all corners of the globe during the latter half of the 20th century, and continue to do so in the Donbas today. Or maybe you can look into what happens to nations in China's immediate neighborhood that resist Beijing's designs. North Korea, a prison camp masquerading as a country, exists solely because of China. Had Mao not intervened on behalf of the Kim family, UN forces would have asserted control up to the Yalu. To this day, the Chinese have been breaking international law by helping Pyongyang dodge sanctions over the DPRK's nuclear weapons program. Same with Russia, actually, despite them both sitting on the UNSC, which passed the sanctions. China also illegally occupies Tibet and has for over 75 years. All of this points to a country very much not existing in harmony with the world. As far as the US government being better, it's not about any given government being better. It's about whether or not totalitarianism can continue on peacefully. It cannot. This is evident on its face.
- koverstreet 2mo ago
palmotea 2mo ago
> Also, who decides which entities are adversaries? I don't personally consider "China" my adversary. As an American who has to deal with US companies, many of them are far more antagonistic to me than a foreign country 10K km away. I could see a dude in Ukraine having exactly the same perspective vis-a-vis Russia in 2013, and look how that turned out. Myopically individualistic perspectives, focused on your individual wants and day-to-day experiences, miss a lot of stuff.
- dofm 2mo ago
  > I could see a dude in Ukraine having exactly the same perspective vis-a-vis Russia in 2013, and look how that turned out. Nobody in Ukraine who wasn't already explicitly pro-Russian thought that in 2013, did they? Russia-aligned individuals poisoned the third president of Ukraine during his presidential campaign, very likely with direct assistance. You'd probably have to go back to Leonid Kuchma's term to find average Ukrainians not profoundly concerned about Russia, and that was a relative high point.
  - palmotea 2mo ago
    > You'd probably have to go back to Leonid Kuchma's term to find average Ukrainians not profoundly concerned about Russia, and that was a relative high point. You're being too literal. I'm sure Ukrainians weren't actually so stupid as many Americans can be. My point is you could transplant that logic (elevate individual, myopic interests and gripes; lose sight of the community you're part of), into a situation that we've already seen play out (Ukraine v. Russia).
    - dofm 2mo ago
      I am observing that it is a bad analogy. China is not a threat to the daily life of individual Americans in the way Russia has always presented a threat to Ukrainians. China isn't even a threat to the the daily life of individual Americans in the way that Russia was (and arguably is)
      - 2mo ago
like_any_other 2mo ago
You don't consider them your adversary, while they strong-arm your corporations to invest in China [1] instead of your own country (this becomes "we have to manufacture in China, we don't have the capability here!"), destroy your corporations through espionage [2,3], or through subsidy-enabled dumping prices and preferential treatment [4,5], extract groveling apologies from your firms [6], operate literal police stations on your soil [7], turn your countries into subordinate receivers of orders [8,9], bribe your politicians [10], censor your media [11], universities [12,13,14], advertising and corporations in general [15,16], and even books [17]. While they plan 50 years ahead, we are stuck re-litigating the most basic "united we stand, divided we fall" logic, even while the consequences are all around us. But congratulations on your enlightened individualism. [1] Apple CEO Tim Cook "secretly" signed an agreement worth more than $275 billion with Chinese officials, promising that Apple would help to develop China's economy and technological capabilities - https://www.macrumors.com/2021/12/07/apple-ceo-tim-cook-secret-deal-with-china/ https://www.macrumors.com/2021/12/07/apple-ceo-tim-cook-secr... [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33758673 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33758673 [3] https://globalnews.ca/news/7275588/inside-the-chinese-military-attack-on-nortel/ https://globalnews.ca/news/7275588/inside-the-chinese-milita... [4] https://www.dw.com/en/from-solar-to-evs-how-china-is-overproducing-green-tech/a-68782157 https://www.dw.com/en/from-solar-to-evs-how-china-is-overpro... [5] EU: Anti-dumping probe into China solar panels - https://apnews.com/general-news-e16007adf4bd468d9acf849734d2a7cf https://apnews.com/general-news-e16007adf4bd468d9acf849734d2... [6] Mercedes-Benz apologizes to Chinese for quoting Dalai Lama - https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mercedes-benz-china-gaffe-idUSKBN1FQ1FJ https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mercedes-benz-china-gaffe... [7] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_police_overseas_service_stations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_police_overseas_servic... [8] FIPA agreement with China: What's really in it for Canada? - https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/fipa-agreement-with-china-what-s-really-in-it-for-canada-1.2770159 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/fipa-agreement-with-china-wha... [9] Posters depicting Hong Kong protests removed by Massey University within 12 hours - https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/116723925/posters-depicting-hong-kong-protests-removed-by-massey-university-within-12-hours https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/116723925/posters-depicting... [10] Businesses with Chinese connections gave Australia's major parties more than $5.5 million between 2013 and 2015, making them easily the largest source of foreign-linked donations. - https://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-08-21/australian-groups-strong-ties-china-political-donations/7768012 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-08-21/australian-groups-str... [11] Apple Told Some Apple TV+ Show Developers Not To Anger China - https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/alexkantrowitz/apple-china-tv-protesters-hong-kong-tim-cook https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/alexkantrowitz/apple-ch... [12] Chinese students in Australia fear reprisals at home if they speak out, inquiry hears - https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/mar/12/chinese-students-in-australia-fear-reprisals-at-home-if-they-speak-out-inquiry-hears https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/mar/12/chine... [13] Perry Link, emeritus professor of East Asian Studies at Princeton University, says that [..] American scholars practice self-censorship about China and adopt the official narrative of the Chinese regime when talking about sensitive issues. “We don’t talk about ‘Taiwan independence.’ We talk about ‘the cross-Strait relations.’ We don’t talk about ‘the occupation of Tibet.’ We don’t call the June 4th Massacre ‘massacre.’ - https://www.theepochtimes.com/how-the-american-academy-misleads-about-china_2720496.html https://www.theepochtimes.com/how-the-american-academy-misle... [14] China pressured Concordia University to cancel event with Uighur activist - https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/chinese-officials-concordia-university-cancel-event-with-uighur-activist-1.5074423 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/chinese-officials-co... [15] Leica Camera has sought to distance itself from a promotional video depicting photographers covering the deadly Tiananmen Square crackdown three decades ago, after it landed the German company in hot water in China. - https://www.scmp.com/news/china/politics/article/3006817/leica-camera-backs-away-promotional-video-depicting-tiananmen https://www.scmp.com/news/china/politics/article/3006817/lei... [16] Mercedes-Benz apologizes to Chinese for quoting Dalai Lama - https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mercedes-benz-china-gaffe-idUSKBN1FQ1FJ https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mercedes-benz-china-gaffe... [17] China gets German children's book about COVID withdrawn - https://www.dw.com/en/china-gets-german-childrens-book-about-covid-withdrawn/a-56874633 https://www.dw.com/en/china-gets-german-childrens-book-about... Edit as reply ("posting too fast", thanks HN) to all the "but the US also does bad things" "counterarguments": > Seriously, Americans can do this chickenshit nonsense, but you are the worldwide problem. I'm European, and not stupid enough to believe that because the US is acting poorly or even in some cases hostile to Europe (to say nothing of the Middle East or South America), that we should roll over and allow China to subjugate us instead. Neither should the US. This is "you are not pure and innocent enough for self-defense" logic. Please don't drag the rest of us down in some deluded attempt at atonement.

thesmtsolver2 2mo ago

What about Russia and Ukraine?

lostlogin 2mo ago
The answer varies depending on the day.
B1FF_PSUVM 2mo ago
"Two bald men fighting for a comb", both in demographic collapse and set afire for the usual reasons.

mring33621 2mo ago

Yeah, I don't want China as an adversary. It appears to me that it is a country full of fun, smart and interesting people. And their manufacturing prowess is incredible. I'm into funny electric vehicles and China makes some beauties!

fleroviumna 2mo ago
[dead]

lenerdenator 2mo ago

> I don't personally consider "China" my adversary They're not an adversary in the same way that a guy demanding your wallet at knifepoint is, or a company able to cut off your electricity is. China is an adversary in the sense that they're a totalitarian government, who, by the nature of that system, cannot brook any sort of opposition to their ideology, plans, or desires. All within the state, none without. That sort of system cannot exist in harmony with other systems for any extended length of time because doing so will suggest that the powers-that-be in China might not have all of the answers to the human condition. Either you fall in line, or you have to be eliminated. If you're an American used to calling other Americans antagonistic, that's not going to work out well for you over the long run.

TheDong 2mo ago
I mean, China's seems to be doing an okay job at coexisting with other countries. Especially when you compare it to the US, where our democracy and capitalism have led us to numerous wars and war-crimes. Like, just this year, we've committed far more breaches of international law than china https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analysis_of_the_2026_Iran_war#Legality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analysis_of_the_2026_Iran_war#... In recent history, we performed dozens of violent coups and destroyed countries in the name of overthrowing communist regimes. China has a totalitarian government, but it's existing more in harmony with the world than the US government has for all of my life, so I don't think you can say that the Chinese government will conflict with other countries while in the same breath implying the US government is better.
- stirfish 2mo ago
  Kind of an okay job, but they could do better. I might feel differently if I lived in Tibet, Hong Kong, Xinjian, Myanmar, etc.
- lenerdenator 2mo ago
  You're going to find China's history as wanting as the US's in that regard. Plenty of Chinese arms found their way to theaters of war in all corners of the globe during the latter half of the 20th century, and continue to do so in the Donbas today. Or maybe you can look into what happens to nations in China's immediate neighborhood that resist Beijing's designs. North Korea, a prison camp masquerading as a country, exists solely because of China. Had Mao not intervened on behalf of the Kim family, UN forces would have asserted control up to the Yalu. To this day, the Chinese have been breaking international law by helping Pyongyang dodge sanctions over the DPRK's nuclear weapons program. Same with Russia, actually, despite them both sitting on the UNSC, which passed the sanctions. China also illegally occupies Tibet and has for over 75 years. All of this points to a country very much not existing in harmony with the world. As far as the US government being better, it's not about any given government being better. It's about whether or not totalitarianism can continue on peacefully. It cannot. This is evident on its face.
koverstreet 2mo ago

palmotea 2mo ago

> Also, who decides which entities are adversaries? I don't personally consider "China" my adversary. As an American who has to deal with US companies, many of them are far more antagonistic to me than a foreign country 10K km away. I could see a dude in Ukraine having exactly the same perspective vis-a-vis Russia in 2013, and look how that turned out. Myopically individualistic perspectives, focused on your individual wants and day-to-day experiences, miss a lot of stuff.

dofm 2mo ago
> I could see a dude in Ukraine having exactly the same perspective vis-a-vis Russia in 2013, and look how that turned out. Nobody in Ukraine who wasn't already explicitly pro-Russian thought that in 2013, did they? Russia-aligned individuals poisoned the third president of Ukraine during his presidential campaign, very likely with direct assistance. You'd probably have to go back to Leonid Kuchma's term to find average Ukrainians not profoundly concerned about Russia, and that was a relative high point.
- palmotea 2mo ago
  > You'd probably have to go back to Leonid Kuchma's term to find average Ukrainians not profoundly concerned about Russia, and that was a relative high point. You're being too literal. I'm sure Ukrainians weren't actually so stupid as many Americans can be. My point is you could transplant that logic (elevate individual, myopic interests and gripes; lose sight of the community you're part of), into a situation that we've already seen play out (Ukraine v. Russia).
  - dofm 2mo ago
    I am observing that it is a bad analogy. China is not a threat to the daily life of individual Americans in the way Russia has always presented a threat to Ukrainians. China isn't even a threat to the the daily life of individual Americans in the way that Russia was (and arguably is)
    - 2mo ago

like_any_other 2mo ago

You don't consider them your adversary, while they strong-arm your corporations to invest in China [1] instead of your own country (this becomes "we have to manufacture in China, we don't have the capability here!"), destroy your corporations through espionage [2,3], or through subsidy-enabled dumping prices and preferential treatment [4,5], extract groveling apologies from your firms [6], operate literal police stations on your soil [7], turn your countries into subordinate receivers of orders [8,9], bribe your politicians [10], censor your media [11], universities [12,13,14], advertising and corporations in general [15,16], and even books [17]. While they plan 50 years ahead, we are stuck re-litigating the most basic "united we stand, divided we fall" logic, even while the consequences are all around us. But congratulations on your enlightened individualism. [1] Apple CEO Tim Cook "secretly" signed an agreement worth more than $275 billion with Chinese officials, promising that Apple would help to develop China's economy and technological capabilities - https://www.macrumors.com/2021/12/07/apple-ceo-tim-cook-secret-deal-with-china/ https://www.macrumors.com/2021/12/07/apple-ceo-tim-cook-secr... [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33758673 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33758673 [3] https://globalnews.ca/news/7275588/inside-the-chinese-military-attack-on-nortel/ https://globalnews.ca/news/7275588/inside-the-chinese-milita... [4] https://www.dw.com/en/from-solar-to-evs-how-china-is-overproducing-green-tech/a-68782157 https://www.dw.com/en/from-solar-to-evs-how-china-is-overpro... [5] EU: Anti-dumping probe into China solar panels - https://apnews.com/general-news-e16007adf4bd468d9acf849734d2a7cf https://apnews.com/general-news-e16007adf4bd468d9acf849734d2... [6] Mercedes-Benz apologizes to Chinese for quoting Dalai Lama - https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mercedes-benz-china-gaffe-idUSKBN1FQ1FJ https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mercedes-benz-china-gaffe... [7] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_police_overseas_service_stations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_police_overseas_servic... [8] FIPA agreement with China: What's really in it for Canada? - https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/fipa-agreement-with-china-what-s-really-in-it-for-canada-1.2770159 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/fipa-agreement-with-china-wha... [9] Posters depicting Hong Kong protests removed by Massey University within 12 hours - https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/116723925/posters-depicting-hong-kong-protests-removed-by-massey-university-within-12-hours https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/116723925/posters-depicting... [10] Businesses with Chinese connections gave Australia's major parties more than $5.5 million between 2013 and 2015, making them easily the largest source of foreign-linked donations. - https://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-08-21/australian-groups-strong-ties-china-political-donations/7768012 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-08-21/australian-groups-str... [11] Apple Told Some Apple TV+ Show Developers Not To Anger China - https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/alexkantrowitz/apple-china-tv-protesters-hong-kong-tim-cook https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/alexkantrowitz/apple-ch... [12] Chinese students in Australia fear reprisals at home if they speak out, inquiry hears - https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/mar/12/chinese-students-in-australia-fear-reprisals-at-home-if-they-speak-out-inquiry-hears https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/mar/12/chine... [13] Perry Link, emeritus professor of East Asian Studies at Princeton University, says that [..] American scholars practice self-censorship about China and adopt the official narrative of the Chinese regime when talking about sensitive issues. “We don’t talk about ‘Taiwan independence.’ We talk about ‘the cross-Strait relations.’ We don’t talk about ‘the occupation of Tibet.’ We don’t call the June 4th Massacre ‘massacre.’ - https://www.theepochtimes.com/how-the-american-academy-misleads-about-china_2720496.html https://www.theepochtimes.com/how-the-american-academy-misle... [14] China pressured Concordia University to cancel event with Uighur activist - https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/chinese-officials-concordia-university-cancel-event-with-uighur-activist-1.5074423 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/chinese-officials-co... [15] Leica Camera has sought to distance itself from a promotional video depicting photographers covering the deadly Tiananmen Square crackdown three decades ago, after it landed the German company in hot water in China. - https://www.scmp.com/news/china/politics/article/3006817/leica-camera-backs-away-promotional-video-depicting-tiananmen https://www.scmp.com/news/china/politics/article/3006817/lei... [16] Mercedes-Benz apologizes to Chinese for quoting Dalai Lama - https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mercedes-benz-china-gaffe-idUSKBN1FQ1FJ https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mercedes-benz-china-gaffe... [17] China gets German children's book about COVID withdrawn - https://www.dw.com/en/china-gets-german-childrens-book-about-covid-withdrawn/a-56874633 https://www.dw.com/en/china-gets-german-childrens-book-about... Edit as reply ("posting too fast", thanks HN) to all the "but the US also does bad things" "counterarguments": > Seriously, Americans can do this chickenshit nonsense, but you are the worldwide problem. I'm European, and not stupid enough to believe that because the US is acting poorly or even in some cases hostile to Europe (to say nothing of the Middle East or South America), that we should roll over and allow China to subjugate us instead. Neither should the US. This is "you are not pure and innocent enough for self-defense" logic. Please don't drag the rest of us down in some deluded attempt at atonement.