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> I can feel the scores of messages being sent to the federal government from lobbyists saying what a threat Chinese hardware is to national security. The moti

> I can feel the scores of messages being sent to the federal government from lobbyists saying what a threat Chinese hardware is to national security. The motivation for such messages may be greedy, but it doesn't mean the facts aren't wrong: 1. As a practical matter, no one can audit systems so thoroughly to determine a system built by an adversary won't act adversarially. 2. Free market incentives work counter to national security all the time, in many ways (e.g. causing domestic capabilities to wither and die).

cyanydeez 2mo ago
OH, BUT we have fable! We have AI! of course we can answer these questions? can't we? which is true: America's AI is a super powerful defense against our enemies or America's AI is too stupid to defend against such a threat, and only sactions and import controls will suffice. Just seems like you're inventing things to be scared of.
- NoidFonsense 2mo ago
  it's a hardware problem, you run into engineering, materials, and physics issues. we're not talking about reverse engineering software
  - cyanydeez 2mo ago
    yeah, haven't you heard AI is magic.
paxys 2mo ago
Can we audit American corporations?
- ryandrake 2mo ago
  Also, who decides which entities are adversaries? I don't personally consider "China" my adversary. As an American who has to deal with US companies, many of them are far more antagonistic to me than a foreign country 10K km away. If "China" decides it doesn't like me, my life really isn't going to change much. If my electric company decides it doesn't like me, I'm in big trouble.
  - thesmtsolver2 2mo ago
    What about Russia and Ukraine?
    - lostlogin 2mo ago
      The answer varies depending on the day.
    - B1FF_PSUVM 2mo ago
      "Two bald men fighting for a comb", both in demographic collapse and set afire for the usual reasons.
  - mring33621 2mo ago
    Yeah, I don't want China as an adversary. It appears to me that it is a country full of fun, smart and interesting people. And their manufacturing prowess is incredible. I'm into funny electric vehicles and China makes some beauties!
    - fleroviumna 2mo ago
      [dead]
  - lenerdenator 2mo ago
    > I don't personally consider "China" my adversary They're not an adversary in the same way that a guy demanding your wallet at knifepoint is, or a company able to cut off your electricity is. China is an adversary in the sense that they're a totalitarian government, who, by the nature of that system, cannot brook any sort of opposition to their ideology, plans, or desires. All within the state, none without. That sort of system cannot exist in harmony with other systems for any extended length of time because doing so will suggest that the powers-that-be in China might not have all of the answers to the human condition. Either you fall in line, or you have to be eliminated. If you're an American used to calling other Americans antagonistic, that's not going to work out well for you over the long run.
- sigmoid10 2mo ago
  Exactly. This is not a question of whether you get spied on, it is a question of who gets the monopoly for spying on you. Between extortion groups, cybercrime syndicates, foreign governments and last but not least my own government, there's not much room for real privacy online these days.
- palmotea 2mo ago
  >> 1. As a practical matter, no one can audit systems so thoroughly to determine a system built by an adversary won't act adversarially. > Can we audit American corporations? What's your point? Did you even read what I wrote? The five words of your comment seem to be pretty sloppy: 1. If you're taking about their products, which is probably what you meant: if you think they're your adversary, then the answer is no, it's pointless. 2. But your comment as written reads as if you're talking about auditing the corporations themselves, which does in fact happen (for tax and financial reporting purposes).
- int0x29 2mo ago
  If you are an American company US backdoors are annoying but hard to avoid given the government will find ways to compell access anyway. Adding potential avoidable foreign back doors does not improve your security. I wouldn't tell a Chinese company to buy from Cisco. I wouldn't tell an American one to buy from Huawei.
sleepgummies 2mo ago
[dead]
like_any_other 2mo ago
3. China was not stupid enough to rely solely on the free market to develop strategic industries. A few deliberately old sources to show this is not a sudden new development: Back in 2014, the central government set up the China National Integrated Circuit Industry Investment Fund. - https://www.scmp.com/tech/enterprises/article/2145422/how-chinas-big-fund-helping-country-catch-global-semiconductor-race https://www.scmp.com/tech/enterprises/article/2145422/how-ch... Over the next decade, China plans to invest up to RMB 1 trillion (US$161 billion) into its domestic semiconductor industry as it seeks to become a global power in the sector. In recent years, Beijing has repeatedly stated that developing its own integrated circuit (IC) industry is of integral national strategic concern. - https://www.china-briefing.com/news/chips-all-in-investing-in-chinas-semiconductor-industry https://www.china-briefing.com/news/chips-all-in-investing-i... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Integrated_Circuit_Industry_Investment_Fund https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Integrated_Circuit_Indus...
- palmotea 2mo ago
  > 3. China was not stupid enough to rely solely on the free market to develop strategic industries. A few deliberately old sources: Yeah, I agree. The US and its allies took the wrong lessons from the economic aspect of the cold war. They saw Western capitalism out-perform Soviet central planning, then let capitalist ideologues run amok. China has the advantage: since it's not run by capitalist ideologues it better able to correct the deficiencies of capitalism AND it can exploit predictable capitalist behavior for strategic advantage.
- zer00eyz 2mo ago
  > Over the next decade That was a 2016 article. We're at the other end of that investment. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZSvDYDfd78 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZSvDYDfd78 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBhQrz9EJ40 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBhQrz9EJ40 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KrdcTsScKk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KrdcTsScKk It did not quite turn out like china wanted. This isn't to be dismissive of what they ARE delivering - china has the potential to be very big in RAM, and Storage in the comming decades. But I'm not sure that they met their industrial and geopolitical goals with these efforts.
throwaw12 2mo ago
To make conversation productive, please define "national security" in this case. For example, if China can't install its hardware in Pentagon, why is it a threat to national security. On the other hand, if you say, Intel will be in trouble because of these chips, then I would say, so what? Wasn't this a dream of MBAs, educated by the top US schools, to outsource everything in business to cheaper service providers (e.g. manufacturing to China, software development to India and etc,.) Where is the threat and what is the threat?
- like_any_other 2mo ago
  "To make conversation productive, please explain how outsourcing your strategic industry and know-how to geopolitical rivals and enemies is a threat." You have a funny definition of "productive".
nixuserb58 2mo ago
This is essentially asking every country in the world to be subservient to US tech in perpetuity. They didn't sign up for that.
B1FF_PSUVM 2mo ago
In the 1980s, when Japanese firms were 7 of top-10 in world market cap, the trade magazines were screaming about Japanese fifth gen computers, silicon prowess, etc. and cyberpunk SF mandatorily had Japanese locales thrown in ...
wolvesechoes 2mo ago
But Meta can share with NSA what kind of porn are you into or that you've said few bad words about US president, whilst CCP doesn't care, so who is a real adversary?! By the way I am an INDIVIDUAL, my personal FREEDOM and FEELINGS are all that matter. China didn't hurt my feelings, domestic companies or politicians did, so, again, who's a real adversary now, huh?!

cyanydeez 2mo ago

OH, BUT we have fable! We have AI! of course we can answer these questions? can't we? which is true: America's AI is a super powerful defense against our enemies or America's AI is too stupid to defend against such a threat, and only sactions and import controls will suffice. Just seems like you're inventing things to be scared of.

NoidFonsense 2mo ago
it's a hardware problem, you run into engineering, materials, and physics issues. we're not talking about reverse engineering software
- cyanydeez 2mo ago
  yeah, haven't you heard AI is magic.

paxys 2mo ago

Can we audit American corporations?

ryandrake 2mo ago
Also, who decides which entities are adversaries? I don't personally consider "China" my adversary. As an American who has to deal with US companies, many of them are far more antagonistic to me than a foreign country 10K km away. If "China" decides it doesn't like me, my life really isn't going to change much. If my electric company decides it doesn't like me, I'm in big trouble.
- thesmtsolver2 2mo ago
  What about Russia and Ukraine?
  - lostlogin 2mo ago
    The answer varies depending on the day.
  - B1FF_PSUVM 2mo ago
    "Two bald men fighting for a comb", both in demographic collapse and set afire for the usual reasons.
- mring33621 2mo ago
  Yeah, I don't want China as an adversary. It appears to me that it is a country full of fun, smart and interesting people. And their manufacturing prowess is incredible. I'm into funny electric vehicles and China makes some beauties!
  - fleroviumna 2mo ago
    [dead]
- lenerdenator 2mo ago
  > I don't personally consider "China" my adversary They're not an adversary in the same way that a guy demanding your wallet at knifepoint is, or a company able to cut off your electricity is. China is an adversary in the sense that they're a totalitarian government, who, by the nature of that system, cannot brook any sort of opposition to their ideology, plans, or desires. All within the state, none without. That sort of system cannot exist in harmony with other systems for any extended length of time because doing so will suggest that the powers-that-be in China might not have all of the answers to the human condition. Either you fall in line, or you have to be eliminated. If you're an American used to calling other Americans antagonistic, that's not going to work out well for you over the long run.
sigmoid10 2mo ago
Exactly. This is not a question of whether you get spied on, it is a question of who gets the monopoly for spying on you. Between extortion groups, cybercrime syndicates, foreign governments and last but not least my own government, there's not much room for real privacy online these days.
palmotea 2mo ago
>> 1. As a practical matter, no one can audit systems so thoroughly to determine a system built by an adversary won't act adversarially. > Can we audit American corporations? What's your point? Did you even read what I wrote? The five words of your comment seem to be pretty sloppy: 1. If you're taking about their products, which is probably what you meant: if you think they're your adversary, then the answer is no, it's pointless. 2. But your comment as written reads as if you're talking about auditing the corporations themselves, which does in fact happen (for tax and financial reporting purposes).
int0x29 2mo ago
If you are an American company US backdoors are annoying but hard to avoid given the government will find ways to compell access anyway. Adding potential avoidable foreign back doors does not improve your security. I wouldn't tell a Chinese company to buy from Cisco. I wouldn't tell an American one to buy from Huawei.

sleepgummies 2mo ago

[dead]

like_any_other 2mo ago

3. China was not stupid enough to rely solely on the free market to develop strategic industries. A few deliberately old sources to show this is not a sudden new development: Back in 2014, the central government set up the China National Integrated Circuit Industry Investment Fund. - https://www.scmp.com/tech/enterprises/article/2145422/how-chinas-big-fund-helping-country-catch-global-semiconductor-race https://www.scmp.com/tech/enterprises/article/2145422/how-ch... Over the next decade, China plans to invest up to RMB 1 trillion (US$161 billion) into its domestic semiconductor industry as it seeks to become a global power in the sector. In recent years, Beijing has repeatedly stated that developing its own integrated circuit (IC) industry is of integral national strategic concern. - https://www.china-briefing.com/news/chips-all-in-investing-in-chinas-semiconductor-industry https://www.china-briefing.com/news/chips-all-in-investing-i... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Integrated_Circuit_Industry_Investment_Fund https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Integrated_Circuit_Indus...

palmotea 2mo ago
> 3. China was not stupid enough to rely solely on the free market to develop strategic industries. A few deliberately old sources: Yeah, I agree. The US and its allies took the wrong lessons from the economic aspect of the cold war. They saw Western capitalism out-perform Soviet central planning, then let capitalist ideologues run amok. China has the advantage: since it's not run by capitalist ideologues it better able to correct the deficiencies of capitalism AND it can exploit predictable capitalist behavior for strategic advantage.
zer00eyz 2mo ago
> Over the next decade That was a 2016 article. We're at the other end of that investment. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZSvDYDfd78 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZSvDYDfd78 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBhQrz9EJ40 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBhQrz9EJ40 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KrdcTsScKk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KrdcTsScKk It did not quite turn out like china wanted. This isn't to be dismissive of what they ARE delivering - china has the potential to be very big in RAM, and Storage in the comming decades. But I'm not sure that they met their industrial and geopolitical goals with these efforts.

throwaw12 2mo ago

To make conversation productive, please define "national security" in this case. For example, if China can't install its hardware in Pentagon, why is it a threat to national security. On the other hand, if you say, Intel will be in trouble because of these chips, then I would say, so what? Wasn't this a dream of MBAs, educated by the top US schools, to outsource everything in business to cheaper service providers (e.g. manufacturing to China, software development to India and etc,.) Where is the threat and what is the threat?

like_any_other 2mo ago
"To make conversation productive, please explain how outsourcing your strategic industry and know-how to geopolitical rivals and enemies is a threat." You have a funny definition of "productive".

nixuserb58 2mo ago

This is essentially asking every country in the world to be subservient to US tech in perpetuity. They didn't sign up for that.

B1FF_PSUVM 2mo ago

In the 1980s, when Japanese firms were 7 of top-10 in world market cap, the trade magazines were screaming about Japanese fifth gen computers, silicon prowess, etc. and cyberpunk SF mandatorily had Japanese locales thrown in ...

wolvesechoes 2mo ago

But Meta can share with NSA what kind of porn are you into or that you've said few bad words about US president, whilst CCP doesn't care, so who is a real adversary?! By the way I am an INDIVIDUAL, my personal FREEDOM and FEELINGS are all that matter. China didn't hurt my feelings, domestic companies or politicians did, so, again, who's a real adversary now, huh?!