5 ms·

It is possible to ignore laws if it's too much bother to comply with them... it's hard to imagine the authorities will come after someone for mailing out 10 ant

It is possible to ignore laws if it's too much bother to comply with them... it's hard to imagine the authorities will come after someone for mailing out 10 anti-static bags.

raverbashing 2mo ago
Yeah I'm betting on that as well In the end, it's mail being sent.
pelagicAustral 2mo ago
Don't hold your breath.
lukan 2mo ago
Likely not, but would you want the extra risk and the stress involved, that maybe one day you will find a expensive letter in your box?
- billyp-rva 2mo ago
  It depends on how expensive that letter is.
bluGill 2mo ago
You risk that someone wants to make an example of you. You might run for mayor and your past is dig up and exaggerated
AndroTux 2mo ago
Sounds like a great opportunity for folks to sue you for exactly that. Same with the imprint requirement in Germany. There are people out there looking for small businesses without an imprint to extract some money from them.
- 9dev 2mo ago
  As they should. As a customer, I want to be able to hold a business accountable, and the minimum requirement for that is being able to identify the legal person responsible for that business.
  - AndroTux 2mo ago
    Yes, I too want the smallest Twitch streamer to have to put their exact home address publicly on the internet so they have no protection from weirdos and stalkers. If a post box would suffice, sure, I'd be down. But that's explicitly not allowed. But regardless, kinda OT. I was just trying to make a point that ignoring a law isn't without consequences.
caseysoftware 2mo ago
That's a very American mindset. I've worked across both the US and EU at a variety of companies with customers, partners, etc and it's a clear pattern: - Americans are usually willing to skirt the rules and figure it out later. This comes with risk but is ideal when you're early stage, low stakes, and you couldn't follow the rules anyway. - Europeans absolutely want to do it by the book and will be shocked if you suggest otherwise. Being process oriented is great for high stakes industries where lives and safety are on the line but destroys startups, likely slowing or even killing innovation. There is no floor to the level of "petty" that can happen here: the UK - granted, not the EU - goes after individuals who don't pay their TV license and determine the who by triangulating unlicensed TVs via radio trucks and inspectors looking in your windows.
- ranger_danger 2mo ago
  I find this hard to discuss among others as it often results in heated discussions, but in my experience, Europeans have a completely different understanding of what is considered "rude" so much that I struggle to work with a vast majority of them. That's not to say that there aren't extremely nice people all other Europe... there are. But I'm still caught off guard when hearing them say some things nonchalantly that would get them fired in the US.
  - scns 2mo ago
    > But I'm still caught off guard when hearing them say some things nonchalantly that would get them fired in the US. I'm intruiged, can you give an example?
    - caseysoftware 2mo ago
      Not sure if it's a pattern but when I interviewed with an EU company recently, they explicitly asked if I was married and if I had kids. They explained it as they had a "European mindset towards weekends and holidays" and they expected me to NOT be online. I was fine with the mindset but never expected to get those questions in an interview, as it'd be illegal in the States.
dmix 2mo ago
Great way for larger companies to knock you their smaller competitors by hiring a firm to vet they follow the rules
FinnLobsien 2mo ago
The problem is that even this has a chilling effect on innovation: 1.It will dissuade some people from starting in the first place because it's one more hurdle. Even if in practice people don't comply, the existence of that complexity will dissuade some people. 2.Even if nobody is being prosecuted for mailing 10 anti-static bags, what is the number at which you do comply? And once you do, will you be held accountable for everything that came before?
matt-p 2mo ago
Maybe it's super convenient for you in the moment, but the aggregate effect is pretty bad. If everyone just ignores laws because they're too much hassle and they don't expect to get caught, enforcement becomes incredibly difficult. You end up with loads of laws that technically exist but are only selectively enforced, which is a pretty serious problem.
- throw-the-towel 2mo ago
  How would you then have backpressure against bad laws?
  - matt-p 2mo ago
    Courts, lobbying (writing to your MP), campaigning, demonstrations, elections ideally. I know that non-compliance is the path of least resistance, it's just got really bad consequences.
    - throw-the-towel 2mo ago
      But then you hit the same problem LLM slop exploits: the cost of refuting bullshit becomes way higher than the cost of generating it.
anonzzzies 2mo ago
Yeah, I always ignore them, first in my own country (NL) and after that in EU. Even if they fine (which they don't for small companies/persons), they will not spend money/efforts to cash the fine anyway, especially across borders. I had a few useless fines in the 35 years of my company, never will pay them.

It is possible to ignore laws if it's too much bother to comply with them... it's hard to imagine the authorities will come after someone for mailing out 10 anti-static bags.

raverbashing 2mo ago

Yeah I'm betting on that as well In the end, it's mail being sent.

pelagicAustral 2mo ago

Don't hold your breath.

lukan 2mo ago

Likely not, but would you want the extra risk and the stress involved, that maybe one day you will find a expensive letter in your box?

billyp-rva 2mo ago
It depends on how expensive that letter is.

bluGill 2mo ago

You risk that someone wants to make an example of you. You might run for mayor and your past is dig up and exaggerated

AndroTux 2mo ago

Sounds like a great opportunity for folks to sue you for exactly that. Same with the imprint requirement in Germany. There are people out there looking for small businesses without an imprint to extract some money from them.

9dev 2mo ago
As they should. As a customer, I want to be able to hold a business accountable, and the minimum requirement for that is being able to identify the legal person responsible for that business.
- AndroTux 2mo ago
  Yes, I too want the smallest Twitch streamer to have to put their exact home address publicly on the internet so they have no protection from weirdos and stalkers. If a post box would suffice, sure, I'd be down. But that's explicitly not allowed. But regardless, kinda OT. I was just trying to make a point that ignoring a law isn't without consequences.

caseysoftware 2mo ago

That's a very American mindset. I've worked across both the US and EU at a variety of companies with customers, partners, etc and it's a clear pattern: - Americans are usually willing to skirt the rules and figure it out later. This comes with risk but is ideal when you're early stage, low stakes, and you couldn't follow the rules anyway. - Europeans absolutely want to do it by the book and will be shocked if you suggest otherwise. Being process oriented is great for high stakes industries where lives and safety are on the line but destroys startups, likely slowing or even killing innovation. There is no floor to the level of "petty" that can happen here: the UK - granted, not the EU - goes after individuals who don't pay their TV license and determine the who by triangulating unlicensed TVs via radio trucks and inspectors looking in your windows.

ranger_danger 2mo ago
I find this hard to discuss among others as it often results in heated discussions, but in my experience, Europeans have a completely different understanding of what is considered "rude" so much that I struggle to work with a vast majority of them. That's not to say that there aren't extremely nice people all other Europe... there are. But I'm still caught off guard when hearing them say some things nonchalantly that would get them fired in the US.
- scns 2mo ago
  > But I'm still caught off guard when hearing them say some things nonchalantly that would get them fired in the US. I'm intruiged, can you give an example?
  - caseysoftware 2mo ago
    Not sure if it's a pattern but when I interviewed with an EU company recently, they explicitly asked if I was married and if I had kids. They explained it as they had a "European mindset towards weekends and holidays" and they expected me to NOT be online. I was fine with the mindset but never expected to get those questions in an interview, as it'd be illegal in the States.

dmix 2mo ago

Great way for larger companies to knock you their smaller competitors by hiring a firm to vet they follow the rules

FinnLobsien 2mo ago

The problem is that even this has a chilling effect on innovation: 1.It will dissuade some people from starting in the first place because it's one more hurdle. Even if in practice people don't comply, the existence of that complexity will dissuade some people. 2.Even if nobody is being prosecuted for mailing 10 anti-static bags, what is the number at which you do comply? And once you do, will you be held accountable for everything that came before?

matt-p 2mo ago

Maybe it's super convenient for you in the moment, but the aggregate effect is pretty bad. If everyone just ignores laws because they're too much hassle and they don't expect to get caught, enforcement becomes incredibly difficult. You end up with loads of laws that technically exist but are only selectively enforced, which is a pretty serious problem.

throw-the-towel 2mo ago
How would you then have backpressure against bad laws?
- matt-p 2mo ago
  Courts, lobbying (writing to your MP), campaigning, demonstrations, elections ideally. I know that non-compliance is the path of least resistance, it's just got really bad consequences.
  - throw-the-towel 2mo ago
    But then you hit the same problem LLM slop exploits: the cost of refuting bullshit becomes way higher than the cost of generating it.

anonzzzies 2mo ago

Yeah, I always ignore them, first in my own country (NL) and after that in EU. Even if they fine (which they don't for small companies/persons), they will not spend money/efforts to cash the fine anyway, especially across borders. I had a few useless fines in the 35 years of my company, never will pay them.