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> See: modern liberal society and feminisim which leads to population collapse and destruction of the civilizations that embrace it. I would absolutely love an

> See: modern liberal society and feminisim which leads to population collapse and destruction of the civilizations that embrace it. I would absolutely love any kind of reputable source on this.

FallCheeta7373 1mo ago
I think the default mode is lack of population and getting outcompeted by pro-natal civilisations, like amish etc. You need to provide a reputable source for why is that not the case.
- saghm 1mo ago
  I must be either misreading your point or not recognizing intentional irony. I would expect the Amish to average a lot of kids per family, but I'm not aware of any instance of a civilization disappearing due to being outcompeted by them.
  - FallCheeta7373 1mo ago
    The population maths works out exponentially it will likely take a 150 yrs to reach 300M~, the only moat liberal culture has is mimetic and we have seen that being trampled in realtime with post-truth era I am not optimistic about that.
- birdsongs 1mo ago
  I don't need to provide anything, I'm not the one making claims. (Especially ones as wild as this.) That's... That's not how discourse works.
  - FallCheeta7373 1mo ago
    Well I need to be shown why the default darwinian assumption which has held for millions of years won't eventually win again rather than your historical aberration.
saghm 1mo ago
Yeah it's kind of hard to understand how someone can argue this without giving any examples. What would be an example of a civilization that's been destroyed by "modern liberal society and feminism"? "Modern" implies relatively recent, but I can't think of any civilizations that have collapsed recently. There are certainly people claiming that a collapse is imminent, but that's not a new thing either, and even if I were going to accept the premise that it will happen soon I still wouldn't agree with those as the most likely causes (and there isn't any objective way to know right now given that it hasn't happened yet).
- PaulHoule 1mo ago
  I think there is a crisis coming. It is not likely to be terminal, in and of itself, the immediate problem is that all the thing that leftist like such as public schools, higher ed, and the welfare state are going to become a lot harder to maintain thanks to demographic issues. "Feminism" is not one thing, I mean, women are 50% of the population and they have very different beliefs, experiences, interests, etc. Often "feminism" is an expression of "individualism" and many of the major social changes have been driven by capital and the empire: I mean, a woman who stays home is not paying taxes on the fruits of her labor, she is not driving up stock market prices and making billionaires richer. I think there's not a lot of understanding that other career paths are possible. One of my friends had a child at age 19, spent some time living in a tent, worked in food service, but then got a masters in teaching and now works as an educator and union steward. And her daughter was off on her own at an age where some other women are stuggling with IVF and miscarriages. I know another teen mom who got an accounting degree, went down to New Jersey and became an experienced corporate accountant, and now she does the books for a well-regarded regional bank. I believe in 50 years there is going to be more talk about duty and responsibility (which can be feminine, masculine or neither) and less about individual rights. Either our culture changes or there will be a rupture in which people will turn their backs on everything our culture stood for.
  - saghm 1mo ago
    I know you weren't the one who posted the original comment that spawned this thread, but trying to pivot the discussion into "I think there is a crisis coming" after people pushed back against a wild claim that the same type of thing you're discussing being an objective cause of civilization collapse does not give the impression of good faith, so it does not seem obvious to me that it's worthwhile to try to engage with the points you're making
ilikerashers 1mo ago
If you're interested there are books on Oikophobia (there is one called Western Self-Contempt). It's a theory that societies generate a luxury class which loathes itself and attacks it's own history and culture. This usually happens prior to a collapse in the example societies...
- PaulHoule 1mo ago
  I saw https://cornellpress.cornell.edu/book/9781501763182/western-self-contempt/ https://cornellpress.cornell.edu/book/9781501763182/western-... and I love how it puts a historical context on the phenomenon because part of the current disease is a rejection of history. A general problem I see in circles I have been in lately has been a general distrust of authority, like I am in a Tarot group and people (especially the hierophants!) there tend to have trouble with cards like The Emperor, The Hierophant, Kings and Queens, etc. [1] Of course it's complicated, like the best spokespeople for guru yoga are people like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ch%C3%B6gyam_Trungpa#Controversies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ch%C3%B6gyam_Trungpa#Controver... [1] ... whereas I very much identify with the male-leaning figures in myself and see the female-leaning figures in the mature women around me such as my wife and other witches
- saghm 1mo ago
  That sounds like a much weaker claim than the original one. "These values directly lead to civilization collapse" is a lot different from "these values roughly resemble some of the ones in societies that have collapsed when trying to view them relative to the society itself"; now your claim is predicated on a subjective analogy from modern societies to past ones, and at that point it seems like the result is already basically predetermined based on how much you agree with the values or not.

> See: modern liberal society and feminisim which leads to population collapse and destruction of the civilizations that embrace it. I would absolutely love any kind of reputable source on this.

FallCheeta7373 1mo ago

I think the default mode is lack of population and getting outcompeted by pro-natal civilisations, like amish etc. You need to provide a reputable source for why is that not the case.

saghm 1mo ago
I must be either misreading your point or not recognizing intentional irony. I would expect the Amish to average a lot of kids per family, but I'm not aware of any instance of a civilization disappearing due to being outcompeted by them.
- FallCheeta7373 1mo ago
  The population maths works out exponentially it will likely take a 150 yrs to reach 300M~, the only moat liberal culture has is mimetic and we have seen that being trampled in realtime with post-truth era I am not optimistic about that.
birdsongs 1mo ago
I don't need to provide anything, I'm not the one making claims. (Especially ones as wild as this.) That's... That's not how discourse works.
- FallCheeta7373 1mo ago
  Well I need to be shown why the default darwinian assumption which has held for millions of years won't eventually win again rather than your historical aberration.

saghm 1mo ago

Yeah it's kind of hard to understand how someone can argue this without giving any examples. What would be an example of a civilization that's been destroyed by "modern liberal society and feminism"? "Modern" implies relatively recent, but I can't think of any civilizations that have collapsed recently. There are certainly people claiming that a collapse is imminent, but that's not a new thing either, and even if I were going to accept the premise that it will happen soon I still wouldn't agree with those as the most likely causes (and there isn't any objective way to know right now given that it hasn't happened yet).

PaulHoule 1mo ago
I think there is a crisis coming. It is not likely to be terminal, in and of itself, the immediate problem is that all the thing that leftist like such as public schools, higher ed, and the welfare state are going to become a lot harder to maintain thanks to demographic issues. "Feminism" is not one thing, I mean, women are 50% of the population and they have very different beliefs, experiences, interests, etc. Often "feminism" is an expression of "individualism" and many of the major social changes have been driven by capital and the empire: I mean, a woman who stays home is not paying taxes on the fruits of her labor, she is not driving up stock market prices and making billionaires richer. I think there's not a lot of understanding that other career paths are possible. One of my friends had a child at age 19, spent some time living in a tent, worked in food service, but then got a masters in teaching and now works as an educator and union steward. And her daughter was off on her own at an age where some other women are stuggling with IVF and miscarriages. I know another teen mom who got an accounting degree, went down to New Jersey and became an experienced corporate accountant, and now she does the books for a well-regarded regional bank. I believe in 50 years there is going to be more talk about duty and responsibility (which can be feminine, masculine or neither) and less about individual rights. Either our culture changes or there will be a rupture in which people will turn their backs on everything our culture stood for.
- saghm 1mo ago
  I know you weren't the one who posted the original comment that spawned this thread, but trying to pivot the discussion into "I think there is a crisis coming" after people pushed back against a wild claim that the same type of thing you're discussing being an objective cause of civilization collapse does not give the impression of good faith, so it does not seem obvious to me that it's worthwhile to try to engage with the points you're making

ilikerashers 1mo ago

If you're interested there are books on Oikophobia (there is one called Western Self-Contempt). It's a theory that societies generate a luxury class which loathes itself and attacks it's own history and culture. This usually happens prior to a collapse in the example societies...

PaulHoule 1mo ago
I saw https://cornellpress.cornell.edu/book/9781501763182/western-self-contempt/ https://cornellpress.cornell.edu/book/9781501763182/western-... and I love how it puts a historical context on the phenomenon because part of the current disease is a rejection of history. A general problem I see in circles I have been in lately has been a general distrust of authority, like I am in a Tarot group and people (especially the hierophants!) there tend to have trouble with cards like The Emperor, The Hierophant, Kings and Queens, etc. [1] Of course it's complicated, like the best spokespeople for guru yoga are people like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ch%C3%B6gyam_Trungpa#Controversies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ch%C3%B6gyam_Trungpa#Controver... [1] ... whereas I very much identify with the male-leaning figures in myself and see the female-leaning figures in the mature women around me such as my wife and other witches
saghm 1mo ago
That sounds like a much weaker claim than the original one. "These values directly lead to civilization collapse" is a lot different from "these values roughly resemble some of the ones in societies that have collapsed when trying to view them relative to the society itself"; now your claim is predicated on a subjective analogy from modern societies to past ones, and at that point it seems like the result is already basically predetermined based on how much you agree with the values or not.