4 ms·

> the LED can't be controlled from software If you look at tear downs apparently it is connected to the webcam so it is energized when the webcam receives powe

> the LED can't be controlled from software If you look at tear downs apparently it is connected to the webcam so it is energized when the webcam receives power making it nearly impossible to defeat. You can say a lot about Apple but the engineering is clever at the hardware level.

Barbing 1mo ago
Also the Hall effect sensor disabling the mic when a MacBook lid is closed, apparently just about impossible to bypass. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hall_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hall_effect
- dncornholio 1mo ago
  It's not. I can place my iPhone next to my trackpad and the MacBook thinks I closed the lid.
  - BYazfVCcq 1mo ago
    That's not what people mean by 'bypassing', turning it off is obviously easy. The point is that activating the microphone while the lid is closed is pretty much impossible.
ryandrake 1mo ago
It's not even that clever, really. The camera power rail must be physically close to the camera, so it's trivial to hang an LED off it. A device manufacturer has to go out of their way to make it so the LED and camera function are independent, and I'm sure many do, for the worst reasons you can possibly think of.
- Gigachad 1mo ago
  It's more a testament to how little most companies care. The solution is simple and yet most products are defective.
  - randyrand 1mo ago
    For most products the LED is not a simple on/off indicator. It signals device state, user confirmations, ota updates, etc etc etc. I’m at a loss for how you would signal all of that without a GPIO.
    - Gigachad 1mo ago
      The record indicator should be purely reserved for showing if the camera is on. If you want to show all that other stuff, put a second LED on it.
- Marsymars 1mo ago
  Nest cameras used to have a user toggle to enable/disable the camera LED; not the worst reason I can think of.
  - mschuster91 1mo ago
    Yeah, and then came people hiding cameras in places where you clearly did not want a camera to be. Bathrooms in public areas, hotels, workplaces and AirBnBs are a much too common issue, it's like daily news some creep gets busted for running cameras.
    - Marsymars 1mo ago
      Yeah, my implication was just that the worst thing I could think of were cameras where the owners don't realize that some third-party is recording them. LEDs won't stop creeps — the camera owner can always disable LEDs with a bit of electrical tape.
      - mschuster91 1mo ago
        > Yeah, my implication was just that the worst thing I could think of were cameras where the owners don't realize that some third-party is recording them. At the point we are in time... honestly, I don't expect this thing called "privacy" any more. And I'm, notably, German. Glassholes, camera surveillance everywhere, our police is more and more turning into the rabid hellscape that is American police with far-right authoritarians at the helm and more and more forces joining up with Palantir or working on a European alternative. I'm dead sure that at least law enforcement plus dedicated individuals with access to ad data brokers can work out precisely when I had a wank and what I wanked to, now there being a video of me wanking would only be the icing on the cake. > LEDs won't stop creeps — the camera owner can always disable LEDs with a bit of electrical tape. Many even forget about that piece of opsec, which is why they get caught in the first place, eventually the tape falls off.
- avidiax 1mo ago
  It could be a typical design that the camera and LED always have power, and the LED is switchable. Giving the camera plus LED a separate power supply means that the camera has to boot or come online, which maybe increases the dwell time. And the camera is not visible on the USB bus when powered off. I think there's more engineering to Apple's design than it first seems.
  - aaronmdjones 1mo ago
    The thing visible on the bus is the interface chip, not the sensor. Most cameras which I've seen hardwire their activity LEDs (it is impossible to grab stills or record video without lighting up the LED) do so by connecting the activity LED to the sensor power rail. With the sensor powered off, the device is still visible on the bus but you get no usable image data.
AshamedCaptain 1mo ago
This still would allow one to "strobe" the power line making it impossible for a human to see the LED but the camera could still capture snapshots and at a decent framerate even.
- NavinF 1mo ago
  Naw the LED stays on a little longer after you stop capturing image data. They either have burned in firmware or a simple circuit (RC and comparator) that stops your attack.

Barbing 1mo ago

Also the Hall effect sensor disabling the mic when a MacBook lid is closed, apparently just about impossible to bypass. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hall_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hall_effect

dncornholio 1mo ago
It's not. I can place my iPhone next to my trackpad and the MacBook thinks I closed the lid.
- BYazfVCcq 1mo ago
  That's not what people mean by 'bypassing', turning it off is obviously easy. The point is that activating the microphone while the lid is closed is pretty much impossible.

ryandrake 1mo ago

It's not even that clever, really. The camera power rail must be physically close to the camera, so it's trivial to hang an LED off it. A device manufacturer has to go out of their way to make it so the LED and camera function are independent, and I'm sure many do, for the worst reasons you can possibly think of.

Gigachad 1mo ago
It's more a testament to how little most companies care. The solution is simple and yet most products are defective.
- randyrand 1mo ago
  For most products the LED is not a simple on/off indicator. It signals device state, user confirmations, ota updates, etc etc etc. I’m at a loss for how you would signal all of that without a GPIO.
  - Gigachad 1mo ago
    The record indicator should be purely reserved for showing if the camera is on. If you want to show all that other stuff, put a second LED on it.
Marsymars 1mo ago
Nest cameras used to have a user toggle to enable/disable the camera LED; not the worst reason I can think of.
- mschuster91 1mo ago
  Yeah, and then came people hiding cameras in places where you clearly did not want a camera to be. Bathrooms in public areas, hotels, workplaces and AirBnBs are a much too common issue, it's like daily news some creep gets busted for running cameras.
  - Marsymars 1mo ago
    Yeah, my implication was just that the worst thing I could think of were cameras where the owners don't realize that some third-party is recording them. LEDs won't stop creeps — the camera owner can always disable LEDs with a bit of electrical tape.
    - mschuster91 1mo ago
      > Yeah, my implication was just that the worst thing I could think of were cameras where the owners don't realize that some third-party is recording them. At the point we are in time... honestly, I don't expect this thing called "privacy" any more. And I'm, notably, German. Glassholes, camera surveillance everywhere, our police is more and more turning into the rabid hellscape that is American police with far-right authoritarians at the helm and more and more forces joining up with Palantir or working on a European alternative. I'm dead sure that at least law enforcement plus dedicated individuals with access to ad data brokers can work out precisely when I had a wank and what I wanked to, now there being a video of me wanking would only be the icing on the cake. > LEDs won't stop creeps — the camera owner can always disable LEDs with a bit of electrical tape. Many even forget about that piece of opsec, which is why they get caught in the first place, eventually the tape falls off.
avidiax 1mo ago
It could be a typical design that the camera and LED always have power, and the LED is switchable. Giving the camera plus LED a separate power supply means that the camera has to boot or come online, which maybe increases the dwell time. And the camera is not visible on the USB bus when powered off. I think there's more engineering to Apple's design than it first seems.
- aaronmdjones 1mo ago
  The thing visible on the bus is the interface chip, not the sensor. Most cameras which I've seen hardwire their activity LEDs (it is impossible to grab stills or record video without lighting up the LED) do so by connecting the activity LED to the sensor power rail. With the sensor powered off, the device is still visible on the bus but you get no usable image data.

AshamedCaptain 1mo ago

This still would allow one to "strobe" the power line making it impossible for a human to see the LED but the camera could still capture snapshots and at a decent framerate even.

NavinF 1mo ago
Naw the LED stays on a little longer after you stop capturing image data. They either have burned in firmware or a simple circuit (RC and comparator) that stops your attack.