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>[China] has a better track record than the US; trivially, as every other country does. This is a fair take? Really. That "every other country" has a better "h

>[China] has a better track record than the US; trivially, as every other country does. This is a fair take? Really. That "every other country" has a better "human rights" track record than the US, so countries including Russia. Or the oft-accused-of-genocide Israel. I don't think it's possible to coherently debate these policy moves when the starting point for the opposition is "I am choosing to be insane about my view of history and the position of the respective countries party to the dispute".

vrganj 1mo ago
The very existence of the US is predicated on ethnically cleansing the continent of native americans and large-scale ecocide.
- remarkEon 1mo ago
  [flagged]
  - toomanyrichies 1mo ago
    What part of what they said is inaccurate?
    - remarkEon 1mo ago
      All of it. If I thought I wanted to discuss technology with communists I'd join reddit.
      - toomanyrichies 1mo ago
        "When European settlers arrived in the Americas, historians estimate there were over 10 million Native Americans living there. By 1900, their estimated population was under 300,000. ...In the late 1800s, blankets from smallpox patients were distributed to Native Americans in order to spread disease. ...European settlers were paid for each Penobscot person they killed. In the 19th century, 4,000 Cherokee people died on the Trail of Tears, a forced march from the southern U.S. to Oklahoma." [1] America is built on the genocide of indigenous peoples. That fact is well-documented, whether you want to admit it or not. 1. https://hmh.org/library/research/genocide-of-indigenous-peoples-guide/ https://hmh.org/library/research/genocide-of-indigenous-peop...
      - vrganj 1mo ago
        > Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle. It tramples curiosity. > Please don't post comments saying that HN is turning into Reddit. It's a semi-noob illusion, as old as the hills. I would recommend familiarizing yourself with the HN guidelines - check them out here! https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Also note that you didn't actually address the factual claim, you just went straight to an ad-hominem. That in turn reads like you don't actually have a response to the claim and are just trying to distract from that fact.
        remarkEon 1mo ago
        Okay. >Also note that you didn't actually address the factual claim, you just went straight to an ad-hominem. That in turn reads like you don't actually have a response to the claim and are just trying to distract from that fact. The problem here is that you appear to believe there is a factual claim involved, when there isn't. It's like claiming the point of water is to drown people. Edit, since I noticed you're the author upthread. It's worth pointing out, since you are new here, that your initial comment also violates the spirit of the guidelines. >The very existence of the US is predicated on ethnically cleansing the continent of native americans and large-scale ecocide. Forgetting for a moment if this is true or not, it's not a claim that's falsifiable. It's an ideological statement that is meant to convey that the speaker a) is likely a communist (congratulations), b) has extreme disdain for the United States, and c) attempts to redirect what are meant to be policy discussions into a blackhole of attempting to argue about whether or not the United States is evil. This is pointless, but is a common tactic used by online bullies.
        vrganj 1mo ago
        It is a purely factual statement. The silbling commenter already provided some sourcing, but it should be obvious to anyone with any knowledge of history. The only ideological move is your continued refusal to address the factual claims - instead writing a long-winded comment to distract from it. Two wordy paragraphs. Not a single word about the fate of native Americans. Speaks for itself, huh.
usrnm 1mo ago
> Or the oft-accused-of-genocide Israel The only reason Israel can conduct an open genocide without any consequences is because it has full support of the US
- remarkEon 1mo ago
  Setting aside for a moment whether or not whatever they are doing is or is not a genocide (I don't pay attention to that matter, it doesn't concern me and the outcome of that conflict has nothing to do with my country or people), is your statement meant to mean that the United States is a puppeteer of Israel or something?
ben_w 1mo ago
I don't think it's a fair take when every evil is considered, because that list includes Pol Pot, whose regime would make the Pizzagate conspiracy theory seem like an day ending in y. But the USA does not come across as a strong moral power by the standards that people like to pretend are a sign of civilization since WW2: the USA has had concentration camps in living memory, and the Kent State shootings even more recently than that (and the things done in the war the dead students were protesting against); further back it took Texas from Mexico in much the same way Israel is taking Palestine (not exact but it rhymes), and it definitely engaged in what is now considered genocide against the native American peoples. (Sometimes people bring up nukes; on balance, I suspect this was not an example in this category, though the reasons are a long diversion).
- remarkEon 1mo ago
  >further back it took Texas from Mexico in much the same way Israel is taking Palestine Genuinely laughed out loud at this. This single statement, monstrously ahistorical as it is, allowed me to dismiss everything else you're saying because this narrative emerged only recently, around 2014 or so. It's comically at odds with the written record. >But the USA does not come across as a strong moral power by the standards that people like to pretend are a sign of civilization since WW2 Oh wow, news to me. Last I checked, we had pretty much the entire planet trying to come here. Are you going to tell them that this isn't a good "standard" of civilization? Or do you want me to do this.
  - ben_w 1mo ago
    > This single statement, monstrously ahistorical as it is, allowed me to dismiss everything else you're saying because this narrative emerged only recently, around 2014 or so. Oh? Which part of this is wrong? All of it, or just parts here and there? Mexican territory -> Anglo-American settlement (I can draw comparisons between this and Israeli settlements in occupied territories even if specifics are different) -> rebellion against Mexico -> independent Republic of Texas -> U.S. annexation -> US vs. Mexico war, where the USA got at least as far as Mexico city due to Mexico having negligible capacity for self-defence -> Mexican recognition of the new U.S.-Mexico border. > Are you going to tell them that this isn't a good "standard" of civilization? I'm in the set "them". I looked at you, the USA, from the outside more than once, and my decision every time was "you know what? I don't need any of that nonsense". Likewise for many of my peers, at least one of whom resigned from a big tech firm rather than be relocated to the USA. Guess what: a lot of nations have the "we are the best, everyone wants to move here" narrative. That includes the UK, which I infer from your use of "here" to refer to the USA, is a place you do not live and are unlikely to want to live in.

vrganj 1mo ago

The very existence of the US is predicated on ethnically cleansing the continent of native americans and large-scale ecocide.

remarkEon 1mo ago
[flagged]
- toomanyrichies 1mo ago
  What part of what they said is inaccurate?
  - remarkEon 1mo ago
    All of it. If I thought I wanted to discuss technology with communists I'd join reddit.
    - toomanyrichies 1mo ago
      "When European settlers arrived in the Americas, historians estimate there were over 10 million Native Americans living there. By 1900, their estimated population was under 300,000. ...In the late 1800s, blankets from smallpox patients were distributed to Native Americans in order to spread disease. ...European settlers were paid for each Penobscot person they killed. In the 19th century, 4,000 Cherokee people died on the Trail of Tears, a forced march from the southern U.S. to Oklahoma." [1] America is built on the genocide of indigenous peoples. That fact is well-documented, whether you want to admit it or not. 1. https://hmh.org/library/research/genocide-of-indigenous-peoples-guide/ https://hmh.org/library/research/genocide-of-indigenous-peop...
    - vrganj 1mo ago
      > Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle. It tramples curiosity. > Please don't post comments saying that HN is turning into Reddit. It's a semi-noob illusion, as old as the hills. I would recommend familiarizing yourself with the HN guidelines - check them out here! https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Also note that you didn't actually address the factual claim, you just went straight to an ad-hominem. That in turn reads like you don't actually have a response to the claim and are just trying to distract from that fact.
      - remarkEon 1mo ago
        Okay. >Also note that you didn't actually address the factual claim, you just went straight to an ad-hominem. That in turn reads like you don't actually have a response to the claim and are just trying to distract from that fact. The problem here is that you appear to believe there is a factual claim involved, when there isn't. It's like claiming the point of water is to drown people. Edit, since I noticed you're the author upthread. It's worth pointing out, since you are new here, that your initial comment also violates the spirit of the guidelines. >The very existence of the US is predicated on ethnically cleansing the continent of native americans and large-scale ecocide. Forgetting for a moment if this is true or not, it's not a claim that's falsifiable. It's an ideological statement that is meant to convey that the speaker a) is likely a communist (congratulations), b) has extreme disdain for the United States, and c) attempts to redirect what are meant to be policy discussions into a blackhole of attempting to argue about whether or not the United States is evil. This is pointless, but is a common tactic used by online bullies.
        vrganj 1mo ago
        It is a purely factual statement. The silbling commenter already provided some sourcing, but it should be obvious to anyone with any knowledge of history. The only ideological move is your continued refusal to address the factual claims - instead writing a long-winded comment to distract from it. Two wordy paragraphs. Not a single word about the fate of native Americans. Speaks for itself, huh.

usrnm 1mo ago

> Or the oft-accused-of-genocide Israel The only reason Israel can conduct an open genocide without any consequences is because it has full support of the US

remarkEon 1mo ago
Setting aside for a moment whether or not whatever they are doing is or is not a genocide (I don't pay attention to that matter, it doesn't concern me and the outcome of that conflict has nothing to do with my country or people), is your statement meant to mean that the United States is a puppeteer of Israel or something?

ben_w 1mo ago

I don't think it's a fair take when every evil is considered, because that list includes Pol Pot, whose regime would make the Pizzagate conspiracy theory seem like an day ending in y. But the USA does not come across as a strong moral power by the standards that people like to pretend are a sign of civilization since WW2: the USA has had concentration camps in living memory, and the Kent State shootings even more recently than that (and the things done in the war the dead students were protesting against); further back it took Texas from Mexico in much the same way Israel is taking Palestine (not exact but it rhymes), and it definitely engaged in what is now considered genocide against the native American peoples. (Sometimes people bring up nukes; on balance, I suspect this was not an example in this category, though the reasons are a long diversion).

remarkEon 1mo ago
>further back it took Texas from Mexico in much the same way Israel is taking Palestine Genuinely laughed out loud at this. This single statement, monstrously ahistorical as it is, allowed me to dismiss everything else you're saying because this narrative emerged only recently, around 2014 or so. It's comically at odds with the written record. >But the USA does not come across as a strong moral power by the standards that people like to pretend are a sign of civilization since WW2 Oh wow, news to me. Last I checked, we had pretty much the entire planet trying to come here. Are you going to tell them that this isn't a good "standard" of civilization? Or do you want me to do this.
- ben_w 1mo ago
  > This single statement, monstrously ahistorical as it is, allowed me to dismiss everything else you're saying because this narrative emerged only recently, around 2014 or so. Oh? Which part of this is wrong? All of it, or just parts here and there? Mexican territory -> Anglo-American settlement (I can draw comparisons between this and Israeli settlements in occupied territories even if specifics are different) -> rebellion against Mexico -> independent Republic of Texas -> U.S. annexation -> US vs. Mexico war, where the USA got at least as far as Mexico city due to Mexico having negligible capacity for self-defence -> Mexican recognition of the new U.S.-Mexico border. > Are you going to tell them that this isn't a good "standard" of civilization? I'm in the set "them". I looked at you, the USA, from the outside more than once, and my decision every time was "you know what? I don't need any of that nonsense". Likewise for many of my peers, at least one of whom resigned from a big tech firm rather than be relocated to the USA. Guess what: a lot of nations have the "we are the best, everyone wants to move here" narrative. That includes the UK, which I infer from your use of "here" to refer to the USA, is a place you do not live and are unlikely to want to live in.