6 ms·

China could change but it is a totalitarian regime with no human rights and a terrible track record. I would be happy to see a change there towards freedom, dem

by YZF 2mo ago

China could change but it is a totalitarian regime with no human rights and a terrible track record. I would be happy to see a change there towards freedom, democracy and human rights but that doesn't seem to be in the cards. I don't have a quantitative way of measuring this but I disagree Europe and Canada are closer in values. Canada has some "Europe" in it but a lot more "North America". If you put a random American and a random Canadian in one room they'll have a lot more common than a random Canadian and a random European. Random examples are suburbia and gun ownership. Many Canadians are dual-citizens. About a million US citizens live in Canada. Many Canadians work and travel to the US. Business, personal, family relationships etc. Similarly about a million Canadians live in the US. I've worked a lot with Europeans and Americans (I still do, I work for a large American company with offices in both). I've traveled to the US and to Europe. If you've done that a lot then you know the difference in feeling and culture.

deaux 2mo ago
[flagged]
- earthdeity 2mo ago
  I think this is a fair take, but also the US does this because it can. I don't think other countries don't do imperialism because they are morally pure, but because to do so means getting into conflict with the US. The US just has the biggest stick and so can push around other nations with impunity. The US domestically has a commendable historic commitment to free expression and press freedom, which are good things that China does badly. Those things deserve to be commended even while we condemn imperialism. China has its own record of imperialism in Nepal and its ambitions to attack Taiwan. It just doesn't (currently) have the position to act with impunity the US has long enjoyed.
  - remarkEon 2mo ago
    >[China] has a better track record than the US; trivially, as every other country does. This is a fair take? Really. That "every other country" has a better "human rights" track record than the US, so countries including Russia. Or the oft-accused-of-genocide Israel. I don't think it's possible to coherently debate these policy moves when the starting point for the opposition is "I am choosing to be insane about my view of history and the position of the respective countries party to the dispute".
    - vrganj 2mo ago
      The very existence of the US is predicated on ethnically cleansing the continent of native americans and large-scale ecocide.
      - remarkEon 2mo ago
        [flagged]
        toomanyrichies 2mo ago
        What part of what they said is inaccurate?
        remarkEon 2mo ago
        All of it. If I thought I wanted to discuss technology with communists I'd join reddit.
        toomanyrichies 2mo ago
        "When European settlers arrived in the Americas, historians estimate there were over 10 million Native Americans living there. By 1900, their estimated population was under 300,000. ...In the late 1800s, blankets from smallpox patients were distributed to Native Americans in order to spread disease. ...European settlers were paid for each Penobscot person they killed. In the 19th century, 4,000 Cherokee people died on the Trail of Tears, a forced march from the southern U.S. to Oklahoma." [1] America is built on the genocide of indigenous peoples. That fact is well-documented, whether you want to admit it or not. 1. https://hmh.org/library/research/genocide-of-indigenous-peoples-guide/ https://hmh.org/library/research/genocide-of-indigenous-peop...
        vrganj 2mo ago
        > Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle. It tramples curiosity. > Please don't post comments saying that HN is turning into Reddit. It's a semi-noob illusion, as old as the hills. I would recommend familiarizing yourself with the HN guidelines - check them out here! https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Also note that you didn't actually address the factual claim, you just went straight to an ad-hominem. That in turn reads like you don't actually have a response to the claim and are just trying to distract from that fact.
tw1984 2mo ago
> I would be happy to see a change there towards freedom, democracy and human rights but that doesn't seem to be in the cards. because you have a western centric view on freedom, democracy and human rights. it is certainly not your fault, you were brainwashed to believe it, you are the victim. when the US elected moron like Trump twice, with the congress full of traitors openly putting a foreign country's (which we are not allowed to name) interest first, when the UK has been in managed decline for decade, when the EU is literally ruled by far left extremists, you want to promote the western freedom and democracy? LOL I take that as a joke.
- holgerschurig 2mo ago
  Cool, writing both "you were brainwashed to believe it" and "when the EU is literally ruled by far left extremists" in the same post. Let me address the 2nd point first: some US people are stupid and/or extreme right wing. Because only such a state of mind would explain why something in the center appears to them as "far left", or even "far left extremist". Perhaps it is because the bad US education system never introduced to them what left extremism actually is. E.g. the desire to seize all means of production out of private hands. That is: capital, farm land, companies. Or they would have heard about things like "dictatorship of the preletariat". If they now search for such ideology in EU countries, they wouldn't find anything. But hey, oftentimes they don't even start to search. Due to lack of knowledge and due to having already made up their worldview. No desire to check this worldview against actual facts. And sure, things like freedom is culturally. As a european, I often see that US people declare their country as the epitome of freedom. And they never talk about e.g. their slavery past. They think that the US is most democratic country and little can they show how this alleged democracy loving country is doing to ban gerrymandering (a thing that in REAL democratic country doesn't exist!). And they think they are the best at human rights, but few people know that their own government solds drugs to get money to overturn southern american society. Or that the US killed far more people --- without verdict! --- abroad than even the awful 9/11 criminals. But then again: some people can clearly see how e.g. the level of freedom, democracy and human rights vanished in Hong Kong after a real far left extremist regime took over there. And some people are so blind finding excuses for the actual far left extremist regime --- and blaming ones that entirely aren't of being exactly that.

by YZF 2mo ago

deaux 2mo ago

[flagged]

earthdeity 2mo ago
I think this is a fair take, but also the US does this because it can. I don't think other countries don't do imperialism because they are morally pure, but because to do so means getting into conflict with the US. The US just has the biggest stick and so can push around other nations with impunity. The US domestically has a commendable historic commitment to free expression and press freedom, which are good things that China does badly. Those things deserve to be commended even while we condemn imperialism. China has its own record of imperialism in Nepal and its ambitions to attack Taiwan. It just doesn't (currently) have the position to act with impunity the US has long enjoyed.
- remarkEon 2mo ago
  >[China] has a better track record than the US; trivially, as every other country does. This is a fair take? Really. That "every other country" has a better "human rights" track record than the US, so countries including Russia. Or the oft-accused-of-genocide Israel. I don't think it's possible to coherently debate these policy moves when the starting point for the opposition is "I am choosing to be insane about my view of history and the position of the respective countries party to the dispute".
  - vrganj 2mo ago
    The very existence of the US is predicated on ethnically cleansing the continent of native americans and large-scale ecocide.
    - remarkEon 2mo ago
      [flagged]
      - toomanyrichies 2mo ago
        What part of what they said is inaccurate?
        remarkEon 2mo ago
        All of it. If I thought I wanted to discuss technology with communists I'd join reddit.
        toomanyrichies 2mo ago
        "When European settlers arrived in the Americas, historians estimate there were over 10 million Native Americans living there. By 1900, their estimated population was under 300,000. ...In the late 1800s, blankets from smallpox patients were distributed to Native Americans in order to spread disease. ...European settlers were paid for each Penobscot person they killed. In the 19th century, 4,000 Cherokee people died on the Trail of Tears, a forced march from the southern U.S. to Oklahoma." [1] America is built on the genocide of indigenous peoples. That fact is well-documented, whether you want to admit it or not. 1. https://hmh.org/library/research/genocide-of-indigenous-peoples-guide/ https://hmh.org/library/research/genocide-of-indigenous-peop...
        vrganj 2mo ago
        > Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle. It tramples curiosity. > Please don't post comments saying that HN is turning into Reddit. It's a semi-noob illusion, as old as the hills. I would recommend familiarizing yourself with the HN guidelines - check them out here! https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Also note that you didn't actually address the factual claim, you just went straight to an ad-hominem. That in turn reads like you don't actually have a response to the claim and are just trying to distract from that fact.

tw1984 2mo ago

> I would be happy to see a change there towards freedom, democracy and human rights but that doesn't seem to be in the cards. because you have a western centric view on freedom, democracy and human rights. it is certainly not your fault, you were brainwashed to believe it, you are the victim. when the US elected moron like Trump twice, with the congress full of traitors openly putting a foreign country's (which we are not allowed to name) interest first, when the UK has been in managed decline for decade, when the EU is literally ruled by far left extremists, you want to promote the western freedom and democracy? LOL I take that as a joke.

holgerschurig 2mo ago
Cool, writing both "you were brainwashed to believe it" and "when the EU is literally ruled by far left extremists" in the same post. Let me address the 2nd point first: some US people are stupid and/or extreme right wing. Because only such a state of mind would explain why something in the center appears to them as "far left", or even "far left extremist". Perhaps it is because the bad US education system never introduced to them what left extremism actually is. E.g. the desire to seize all means of production out of private hands. That is: capital, farm land, companies. Or they would have heard about things like "dictatorship of the preletariat". If they now search for such ideology in EU countries, they wouldn't find anything. But hey, oftentimes they don't even start to search. Due to lack of knowledge and due to having already made up their worldview. No desire to check this worldview against actual facts. And sure, things like freedom is culturally. As a european, I often see that US people declare their country as the epitome of freedom. And they never talk about e.g. their slavery past. They think that the US is most democratic country and little can they show how this alleged democracy loving country is doing to ban gerrymandering (a thing that in REAL democratic country doesn't exist!). And they think they are the best at human rights, but few people know that their own government solds drugs to get money to overturn southern american society. Or that the US killed far more people --- without verdict! --- abroad than even the awful 9/11 criminals. But then again: some people can clearly see how e.g. the level of freedom, democracy and human rights vanished in Hong Kong after a real far left extremist regime took over there. And some people are so blind finding excuses for the actual far left extremist regime --- and blaming ones that entirely aren't of being exactly that.