4 ms·

I think it can be Europe, Canada, Australia, and South Korea. The world has the technology. Canada has the resources and the manufacturing capacity. Europe has

I think it can be Europe, Canada, Australia, and South Korea. The world has the technology. Canada has the resources and the manufacturing capacity. Europe has the money. It can be done. Look at Ukraine. They are becoming a military superpower in terms of technology and experience.

exceptione 1mo ago
Europe has the money, the tech, the manufacturing capacity and the know-how. There is a reason Europe conquered the world in just a few years; the lady is way too good at war. One of the reasons post WOII we were quite satisfied with the idea of paying the USA with all kinds of privileges and support to their defense industry and have our own defenses knee-capped. War is horrible, we know that all too well. Reluctantly but surely the wheel has turned now. There are still gaps for intel gathering capabilities (think AWACS), but Saab is already working on alternatives. Also, Europe has to confront its inheritance of fragmentation (in which the USA has played a big role). Just look at all the various types of fighter jets being developed independently across Europe. That is very wasteful. Also, European armies have to incorporate the lessons from Ukraine. The Germans make the world's best tanks, but the advent of drones on the battlefield has shaken up all old mil. doctrines. Aside 1: there are quite some areas where European weapon systems are state of the art, but you won't hear about that unless you are more in the know. The US is hurting itself here in a big way. Going alone = $$$$$$$$$$$$ Aside 2: The European Union has been conceived as an 'ever closer union' from the beginning as to lower the likelihood of new wars on the continent; something the USA pushed us to btw post-WOII. Canada and Australia have raw materials, something which Europe doesn't have abundantly. Sharing development costs across the free world is mainly why you see Canada, Japan, Australia etc having a heightened interest in Europe. There is world-wide a lot of interest in the European defense sector, but South Korea and Israel have also interesting defense sectors.
- dinfinity 1mo ago
  > There is world-wide a lot of interest in the European defense sector, but South Korea and Israel have also interesting defense sectors. I think Israel has become politically just as toxic as the USA (or moreso even). It seems incredibly unwise to make your defense industry dependent on a currently openly warmongering genocidal state.
  - exceptione 1mo ago
    You are getting downvoted, but yes, this is something which can be observed already. The Israelian state has become a world-wide pariah state and that has repercussions for its own industry. Not in the USA, but I think this will quickly change even there. Germany is the exception here.
    - nozzlegear 1mo ago
      > The Israelian state Israeli? edit: why was this downvoted lol, am I missing some meme about "Israelian"? That's not a word.
      - exceptione 1mo ago
        Apologies, my English is beyond bad most of the times.
  - bawolff 1mo ago
    How much you like a country is a privilege of peace time. The more realistic the threat, the more appealing arms that have proven themselves on the battlefield are. I also think there is a huge difference between america's political toxicity, where the concern is directly about things the USA might do to the country in question vs Israel where unless you are in the middle east its more indirect concern for a third party. When times get tough, its easy to forget about third parties, you can't forget if you are the one who is the victim. Which is probably why you see a lot of Israeli arms deals are with countries that are nervous about their neighbours. e.g. Greece just bought a 4 billion dollar missile defense system from Israel. Presumably because they are nervous about Turkey's increasingly aggressive stance.
- redeeman 1mo ago
  > There is a reason Europe conquered the world in just a few years that was a significant different europe than today.
  - exceptione 1mo ago
    Sure! On the other hand, after WO II the French secured a lot of designs from Germany. The know-how, the continuous improvements, the manufacturing base is still here in Europe, this hasn't been lost. It is mostly a matter of scaling up, which is happening now. What is different for post-war Europe is that the USA forced Europe to stop developing their own complex central pieces, making Europe fully dependent on the USA. These pieces are critical and expensive and forces/limits the design parameters of connected systems. This handicapped a lot of Europe grown hardware. These critical dependencies are getting patched away atm, but that will take time because they are complex and expensive.
  - tpm 1mo ago
    Yes, and thank god we Europeans got to be born in pax americana and not before, because there were wars nearly all the time for centuries, if not millenia.
- deleted 1mo ago
  [deleted]
- fmajid 1mo ago
  The SAAB + Bombardier (Swedish + Canadian) GlobalEye AWACS already exists (in service in the UAE) and is superior to the US alternatives.
ColdStream 1mo ago
Personally there are two sides to this that conflict. Firstly, yes Europe and its allies are rapidly becoming more capable and are now funding said capabilities. Secondly, it sadness me to see people cheering on the growth of the war/defense sector. Tao Te Ching - Chapter 46 When the Way governs the world, The proud stallions drag dung carriages. When the Way is lost to the world, War horses are bred outside the city.
tick_tock_tick 1mo ago
What are you joking Canada has nothing. Seriously look what they actually export they're a natural resource depot for the US. They don't even refine their own products.
- defrost 1mo ago
  > They don't even refine their own products. Sure, they were the world's largest producer of raw uranium ores until 2009, since which they've run second. But it's simply wrong to claim Canada doesn't engage in raw mineral refinement, still to this day the McClean Lake uranium mill remains one of the world’s largest uranium processing facilities producing refined Triuranium octoxide (U3O8).
anon291 1mo ago
They have everything but the will power. As annoying as I find Trump he is correct that everyone expects American boys and girls to be willing to die on their behalf while doing basically nothing to prevent war. For example, Germany now expects America involvement in Ukraine despite Germany funding the war against Ukraine for years with their purchase of Russian oil The world seems unhappy unless American kids are dying for them. Their own children are unwilling to do so, but little Jimmy from iowa is supposed to. If you want to know why Americans support trump it's because Americans of my generation knew American kids who died fighting for foreign countries. Nothing radicalizes a population more.
- defrost 1mo ago
  Sadly blinkered US centric PoV on full. The US couldn't be talked down from its Desert War follies, Gulf War (1990) was a 42-country coalition which runs counter to "Their own children are unwilling to do so, but little Jimmy from iowa is supposed to". The follow up, post 9/11, was US led misplaced revenge stupidity with a weaker coalition of the essentially unwilling doing their insufficient best to talk an enraged bull on steroids down - the Afghanistan chapter was more pure "US way is the only way" own goal. Now that you've elected Trump, he's the made a world less safe for all, US citizens included.
  - anon291 1mo ago
    God forbid an American have a US-centric PoV. The use of these sorts of cliches to shut down debate is exactly the reason why even Americans who are not fans of Trump are just kind of 'meh' about the entire thing. If anything, Trump has revealed his initial accusations of the world taking America for granted to basically be true. - > the Afghanistan chapter was more pure "US way is the only way" own goal. Yes, the US way is the only way. If you don't want that to be the case, stop begging America to fight all your wars. As much as I dislike nations like China, Iran, Russia, and as much as I don't see eye-to-eye with nations like India, at least I can respect those nations for fighting their own battles. Europe, Australia, Canada, Japan, etc are simply vassal states and ought to recognize that fact or figure it out. > Now that you've elected Trump, he's the made a world less safe for all, US citizens included. You're right all the crazy maniacs of the world are Trump's fault. I am very smart.

exceptione 1mo ago

Europe has the money, the tech, the manufacturing capacity and the know-how. There is a reason Europe conquered the world in just a few years; the lady is way too good at war. One of the reasons post WOII we were quite satisfied with the idea of paying the USA with all kinds of privileges and support to their defense industry and have our own defenses knee-capped. War is horrible, we know that all too well. Reluctantly but surely the wheel has turned now. There are still gaps for intel gathering capabilities (think AWACS), but Saab is already working on alternatives. Also, Europe has to confront its inheritance of fragmentation (in which the USA has played a big role). Just look at all the various types of fighter jets being developed independently across Europe. That is very wasteful. Also, European armies have to incorporate the lessons from Ukraine. The Germans make the world's best tanks, but the advent of drones on the battlefield has shaken up all old mil. doctrines. Aside 1: there are quite some areas where European weapon systems are state of the art, but you won't hear about that unless you are more in the know. The US is hurting itself here in a big way. Going alone = $$$$$$$$$$$$ Aside 2: The European Union has been conceived as an 'ever closer union' from the beginning as to lower the likelihood of new wars on the continent; something the USA pushed us to btw post-WOII. Canada and Australia have raw materials, something which Europe doesn't have abundantly. Sharing development costs across the free world is mainly why you see Canada, Japan, Australia etc having a heightened interest in Europe. There is world-wide a lot of interest in the European defense sector, but South Korea and Israel have also interesting defense sectors.

dinfinity 1mo ago
> There is world-wide a lot of interest in the European defense sector, but South Korea and Israel have also interesting defense sectors. I think Israel has become politically just as toxic as the USA (or moreso even). It seems incredibly unwise to make your defense industry dependent on a currently openly warmongering genocidal state.
- exceptione 1mo ago
  You are getting downvoted, but yes, this is something which can be observed already. The Israelian state has become a world-wide pariah state and that has repercussions for its own industry. Not in the USA, but I think this will quickly change even there. Germany is the exception here.
  - nozzlegear 1mo ago
    > The Israelian state Israeli? edit: why was this downvoted lol, am I missing some meme about "Israelian"? That's not a word.
    - exceptione 1mo ago
      Apologies, my English is beyond bad most of the times.
- bawolff 1mo ago
  How much you like a country is a privilege of peace time. The more realistic the threat, the more appealing arms that have proven themselves on the battlefield are. I also think there is a huge difference between america's political toxicity, where the concern is directly about things the USA might do to the country in question vs Israel where unless you are in the middle east its more indirect concern for a third party. When times get tough, its easy to forget about third parties, you can't forget if you are the one who is the victim. Which is probably why you see a lot of Israeli arms deals are with countries that are nervous about their neighbours. e.g. Greece just bought a 4 billion dollar missile defense system from Israel. Presumably because they are nervous about Turkey's increasingly aggressive stance.
redeeman 1mo ago
> There is a reason Europe conquered the world in just a few years that was a significant different europe than today.
- exceptione 1mo ago
  Sure! On the other hand, after WO II the French secured a lot of designs from Germany. The know-how, the continuous improvements, the manufacturing base is still here in Europe, this hasn't been lost. It is mostly a matter of scaling up, which is happening now. What is different for post-war Europe is that the USA forced Europe to stop developing their own complex central pieces, making Europe fully dependent on the USA. These pieces are critical and expensive and forces/limits the design parameters of connected systems. This handicapped a lot of Europe grown hardware. These critical dependencies are getting patched away atm, but that will take time because they are complex and expensive.
- tpm 1mo ago
  Yes, and thank god we Europeans got to be born in pax americana and not before, because there were wars nearly all the time for centuries, if not millenia.
deleted 1mo ago
[deleted]
fmajid 1mo ago
The SAAB + Bombardier (Swedish + Canadian) GlobalEye AWACS already exists (in service in the UAE) and is superior to the US alternatives.

ColdStream 1mo ago

Personally there are two sides to this that conflict. Firstly, yes Europe and its allies are rapidly becoming more capable and are now funding said capabilities. Secondly, it sadness me to see people cheering on the growth of the war/defense sector. Tao Te Ching - Chapter 46 When the Way governs the world, The proud stallions drag dung carriages. When the Way is lost to the world, War horses are bred outside the city.

tick_tock_tick 1mo ago

What are you joking Canada has nothing. Seriously look what they actually export they're a natural resource depot for the US. They don't even refine their own products.

defrost 1mo ago
> They don't even refine their own products. Sure, they were the world's largest producer of raw uranium ores until 2009, since which they've run second. But it's simply wrong to claim Canada doesn't engage in raw mineral refinement, still to this day the McClean Lake uranium mill remains one of the world’s largest uranium processing facilities producing refined Triuranium octoxide (U3O8).

anon291 1mo ago

They have everything but the will power. As annoying as I find Trump he is correct that everyone expects American boys and girls to be willing to die on their behalf while doing basically nothing to prevent war. For example, Germany now expects America involvement in Ukraine despite Germany funding the war against Ukraine for years with their purchase of Russian oil The world seems unhappy unless American kids are dying for them. Their own children are unwilling to do so, but little Jimmy from iowa is supposed to. If you want to know why Americans support trump it's because Americans of my generation knew American kids who died fighting for foreign countries. Nothing radicalizes a population more.

defrost 1mo ago
Sadly blinkered US centric PoV on full. The US couldn't be talked down from its Desert War follies, Gulf War (1990) was a 42-country coalition which runs counter to "Their own children are unwilling to do so, but little Jimmy from iowa is supposed to". The follow up, post 9/11, was US led misplaced revenge stupidity with a weaker coalition of the essentially unwilling doing their insufficient best to talk an enraged bull on steroids down - the Afghanistan chapter was more pure "US way is the only way" own goal. Now that you've elected Trump, he's the made a world less safe for all, US citizens included.
- anon291 1mo ago
  God forbid an American have a US-centric PoV. The use of these sorts of cliches to shut down debate is exactly the reason why even Americans who are not fans of Trump are just kind of 'meh' about the entire thing. If anything, Trump has revealed his initial accusations of the world taking America for granted to basically be true. - > the Afghanistan chapter was more pure "US way is the only way" own goal. Yes, the US way is the only way. If you don't want that to be the case, stop begging America to fight all your wars. As much as I dislike nations like China, Iran, Russia, and as much as I don't see eye-to-eye with nations like India, at least I can respect those nations for fighting their own battles. Europe, Australia, Canada, Japan, etc are simply vassal states and ought to recognize that fact or figure it out. > Now that you've elected Trump, he's the made a world less safe for all, US citizens included. You're right all the crazy maniacs of the world are Trump's fault. I am very smart.