6 ms·

In the opening sentence: > according to a lawyer who is prosecuting the world’s largest social media company. The headline makes it sound like something inter

In the opening sentence: > according to a lawyer who is prosecuting the world’s largest social media company. The headline makes it sound like something internal at Meta got revealed. The catchy four-H phrase is the clever hook the lawyer came up with to try to hold the jury’s mind through the case. If you’re unfamiliar with how these trials work, the lawyers are trying to create a compelling narrative to support their case and catchy phrases that sound like marketing lingo are often used. This wasn’t some internal Meta doc that got revealed.

xeonmc 2mo ago
If the gloves don't fit, you must acquit.
DiabloD3 2mo ago
Its the same way "embrace, extend, and extinguish" was coined. "Embrace and extend", without extinguish/exterminate, was used in Microsoft corp docs that were handed to the DOJ during the famous antitrust case, but it was the DOJ that turned it into EEE after realizing what "embrace and extend" actually meant in the broader context of Microsoft's machinations. The DOJ's clever hook won them the case.
- hn_throwaway_99 2mo ago
  > The DOJ's clever hook won them the case. Or, rather, the fact that Microsoft was blatantly illegally abusing their monopoly position to kill competitors.
  - digitaltrees 2mo ago
    Blatant complex behavior, no matter how illegal, won’t convince a judge or jury without clear rhetoric. So catch phrases are essential elements to conveying the truth about the behavior
    - ambicapter 2mo ago
      [citation needed]
      - Loughla 2mo ago
        It's hard to prove a negative, you know.
        EA-3167 2mo ago
        Seems like a good argument for tempering claims around negatives then, if people want to be taken seriously.
        digitaltrees 2mo ago
        Seems like you’re just demanding proof for something that’s obvious on its face. Only someone that has never taken a writing, communication, debate or similar class would demand evidence for the proposition that effective communication to a general audience has to target a 3rd or 4th grade reading level and catch phrases with alliteration that fits within human short term memory is essential to ensure comprehension. There is the rule of three https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_three_(writing) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_three_(writing) and rule of seven. https://bostoninstituteofanalytics.org/blog/the-rule-of-seven-in-marketing-why-customers-need-repeated-exposure/ https://bostoninstituteofanalytics.org/blog/the-rule-of-seve...
        EA-3167 2mo ago
        There's a difference between understanding rules for effective arguments and writing, and believing that those rules are shortcuts to swaying a jury without needing a case. It's certainly PART of communication, but this isn't a Hollywood script so glib speech alone isn't going to get you very far in this sort of case. I'd also caution you to remember that for thousands of years people argued from "What was obvious" and they were inevitably wrong, so I'll stick to the scientific method over "You must not know how to write" as an argument.
- hliyan 2mo ago
  Not unlike "delay, deny, defend".
  - treetalker 2mo ago
    Would explain Zuck’s late interest in martial arts …
    - Obscurity4340 2mo ago
      Very much his schtoyle
- brhn 2mo ago
  This is false. They explicitly used extinguish in their internal doctrine. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguis...
  - deleted 2mo ago
    [deleted]
  - nneonneo 2mo ago
    Did they actually use this phrase in their internal comms? The one reference I can find - https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/atr/legacy/2006/06/01/V-A.pdf https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/atr/legacy/2006/... - says that Steven McGeady (then VP of Intel) testified that Paul Maritz (then an exec at Microsoft) told Intel that Microsoft's strategy was to "embrace, extend, extinguish". However, I can't see that corroborated by any actual internal communications.
    - koolala 2mo ago
      That statement was itself internal communication.
mmahemoff 2mo ago
I can see how the title is misleading, but I would have been shocked if it was internal Meta jargon. Execs at all the big tech companies nowadays have a culture of avoiding slogans that could be deemed overly aggressive. Even “Move fast and break things” was technocratted into “Move fast with stable infrastructure” after Meta went public.
- consensus1 2mo ago
  “Move fast and break things” -> “Move fast with stable infrastructure” Lawyers and bureaucrats are organizational cancer.
gtowey 2mo ago
The antidote to that would be for Meta to reveal all their internal communications. But they'll never do that because their own words and actions are likely far more damning than any story the DOJ could weave. The trend I have noticed is anytime the actual truth leaks from these actors and companies, it's so much more evil than I could have imagined. Like the recent tell-all book from someone who worked directly with Zuckerberg, Careless People -- I was shocked at just how amoral those in leadership there. I had a dim view of them before, but their actual words and deeds were worse than I could have imagined.
- voakbasda 2mo ago
  The fun part is their internal communication might be relatively exculpatory, but a good prosecutor can find the crumb or two to hang them. "Give me six lines written by the most honorable of men, and I will find something in them to hang him." — Cardinal Richelieu (Armand Jean du Plessis)
  - windexh8er 2mo ago
    > The fun part is their internal communication might be relatively exculpatory, but a good prosecutor can find the crumb or two to hang them. To the first part of that sentence: maybe, but I highly doubt it and these would be the last people on earth to give the benefit of the doubt to. Zuckerberg, and his peers, are operating in an "us vs them" mentality and we should also prosecute them in the exact same manner. They don't care about their users and they don't view them as humans or equals in any regard. They are parasites who only consume, cast blame, have zero interest in what's fair and treat everything around them as a capitalistic game of who can hoard the most. I would love to see Zuckerberg have to defend himself in a court of law and, instead of dodge every question, have to answer to his worldly peers in a truthful manner. The hatred towards a person like that must weigh on him. The best part about him is Facebook was an initiative in his own failings amongst his personal life. And it never filled that void. Zuckerberg is probably still socially broke on the inside. He's a terrible human through and through.
    - gtowey 2mo ago
anigbrowl 2mo ago
Quite. PEople complain about AI language being weird and unnatural, but imho it's just the distillation of this cultural habit of trying to turn everything into a brand, slogan, or mnemonic. When you have a society that generally dislies reading, everything becomes a pitch.
beAbU 2mo ago
"If the glove doesn't fit, you must acquit!"
- Obscurity4340 2mo ago
  *dont
sumeno 2mo ago
“alleged” in the headline makes it pretty clear that it’s what they are being accused of
1vuio0pswjnm7 2mo ago
"The headline makes it sound like something internal at Meta got revealed." There is, of course, more to a story than a headline The quote is from an opening statemment not a presentation of evidence Perhaps something was "revealed" in discovery and this will be "revealed" to the court in the upcoming weeks s/got/is going to be/ The trial will last 5-7 weeks https://metasinternalresearch.org/ https://metasinternalresearch.org/ | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49375439 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49375439 https://web.archive.org/web/20260114162941if_/https://metasinternalresearch.org/ https://web.archive.org/web/20260114162941if_/https://metasi...

xeonmc 2mo ago

If the gloves don't fit, you must acquit.

DiabloD3 2mo ago

Its the same way "embrace, extend, and extinguish" was coined. "Embrace and extend", without extinguish/exterminate, was used in Microsoft corp docs that were handed to the DOJ during the famous antitrust case, but it was the DOJ that turned it into EEE after realizing what "embrace and extend" actually meant in the broader context of Microsoft's machinations. The DOJ's clever hook won them the case.

hn_throwaway_99 2mo ago
> The DOJ's clever hook won them the case. Or, rather, the fact that Microsoft was blatantly illegally abusing their monopoly position to kill competitors.
- digitaltrees 2mo ago
  Blatant complex behavior, no matter how illegal, won’t convince a judge or jury without clear rhetoric. So catch phrases are essential elements to conveying the truth about the behavior
  - ambicapter 2mo ago
    [citation needed]
    - Loughla 2mo ago
      It's hard to prove a negative, you know.
      - EA-3167 2mo ago
        Seems like a good argument for tempering claims around negatives then, if people want to be taken seriously.
        digitaltrees 2mo ago
        Seems like you’re just demanding proof for something that’s obvious on its face. Only someone that has never taken a writing, communication, debate or similar class would demand evidence for the proposition that effective communication to a general audience has to target a 3rd or 4th grade reading level and catch phrases with alliteration that fits within human short term memory is essential to ensure comprehension. There is the rule of three https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_three_(writing) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_three_(writing) and rule of seven. https://bostoninstituteofanalytics.org/blog/the-rule-of-seven-in-marketing-why-customers-need-repeated-exposure/ https://bostoninstituteofanalytics.org/blog/the-rule-of-seve...
        EA-3167 2mo ago
        There's a difference between understanding rules for effective arguments and writing, and believing that those rules are shortcuts to swaying a jury without needing a case. It's certainly PART of communication, but this isn't a Hollywood script so glib speech alone isn't going to get you very far in this sort of case. I'd also caution you to remember that for thousands of years people argued from "What was obvious" and they were inevitably wrong, so I'll stick to the scientific method over "You must not know how to write" as an argument.
hliyan 2mo ago
Not unlike "delay, deny, defend".
- treetalker 2mo ago
  Would explain Zuck’s late interest in martial arts …
  - Obscurity4340 2mo ago
    Very much his schtoyle
brhn 2mo ago
This is false. They explicitly used extinguish in their internal doctrine. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguis...
- deleted 2mo ago
  [deleted]
- nneonneo 2mo ago
  Did they actually use this phrase in their internal comms? The one reference I can find - https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/atr/legacy/2006/06/01/V-A.pdf https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/atr/legacy/2006/... - says that Steven McGeady (then VP of Intel) testified that Paul Maritz (then an exec at Microsoft) told Intel that Microsoft's strategy was to "embrace, extend, extinguish". However, I can't see that corroborated by any actual internal communications.
  - koolala 2mo ago
    That statement was itself internal communication.

mmahemoff 2mo ago

I can see how the title is misleading, but I would have been shocked if it was internal Meta jargon. Execs at all the big tech companies nowadays have a culture of avoiding slogans that could be deemed overly aggressive. Even “Move fast and break things” was technocratted into “Move fast with stable infrastructure” after Meta went public.

consensus1 2mo ago
“Move fast and break things” -> “Move fast with stable infrastructure” Lawyers and bureaucrats are organizational cancer.

gtowey 2mo ago

The antidote to that would be for Meta to reveal all their internal communications. But they'll never do that because their own words and actions are likely far more damning than any story the DOJ could weave. The trend I have noticed is anytime the actual truth leaks from these actors and companies, it's so much more evil than I could have imagined. Like the recent tell-all book from someone who worked directly with Zuckerberg, Careless People -- I was shocked at just how amoral those in leadership there. I had a dim view of them before, but their actual words and deeds were worse than I could have imagined.

voakbasda 2mo ago
The fun part is their internal communication might be relatively exculpatory, but a good prosecutor can find the crumb or two to hang them. "Give me six lines written by the most honorable of men, and I will find something in them to hang him." — Cardinal Richelieu (Armand Jean du Plessis)
- windexh8er 2mo ago
  > The fun part is their internal communication might be relatively exculpatory, but a good prosecutor can find the crumb or two to hang them. To the first part of that sentence: maybe, but I highly doubt it and these would be the last people on earth to give the benefit of the doubt to. Zuckerberg, and his peers, are operating in an "us vs them" mentality and we should also prosecute them in the exact same manner. They don't care about their users and they don't view them as humans or equals in any regard. They are parasites who only consume, cast blame, have zero interest in what's fair and treat everything around them as a capitalistic game of who can hoard the most. I would love to see Zuckerberg have to defend himself in a court of law and, instead of dodge every question, have to answer to his worldly peers in a truthful manner. The hatred towards a person like that must weigh on him. The best part about him is Facebook was an initiative in his own failings amongst his personal life. And it never filled that void. Zuckerberg is probably still socially broke on the inside. He's a terrible human through and through.
  - gtowey 2mo ago

anigbrowl 2mo ago

Quite. PEople complain about AI language being weird and unnatural, but imho it's just the distillation of this cultural habit of trying to turn everything into a brand, slogan, or mnemonic. When you have a society that generally dislies reading, everything becomes a pitch.

beAbU 2mo ago

"If the glove doesn't fit, you must acquit!"

Obscurity4340 2mo ago
*dont

sumeno 2mo ago

“alleged” in the headline makes it pretty clear that it’s what they are being accused of

1vuio0pswjnm7 2mo ago

"The headline makes it sound like something internal at Meta got revealed." There is, of course, more to a story than a headline The quote is from an opening statemment not a presentation of evidence Perhaps something was "revealed" in discovery and this will be "revealed" to the court in the upcoming weeks s/got/is going to be/ The trial will last 5-7 weeks https://metasinternalresearch.org/ https://metasinternalresearch.org/ | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49375439 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49375439 https://web.archive.org/web/20260114162941if_/https://metasinternalresearch.org/ https://web.archive.org/web/20260114162941if_/https://metasi...