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> I will say with conviction no matter who is in office by then will not rebuild trust around the world in their tenure. Too much damage is done to the US's rep

> I will say with conviction no matter who is in office by then will not rebuild trust around the world in their tenure. Too much damage is done to the US's reputation. The only way that the US can start rebuilding this trust is that the incoming Democratic President and Congress (assuming we are so lucky) immediately starts by prosecuting Trump and his family (and results in actual jail time, not just fines or small stays), zero out their government contracts, fire most of the people installed in government since 2025, expand the Supreme Court, and remove the fillibuster. I know people think ideas like that are extreme, but really, what else is going to convince the rest of the world that the US has cleaned up their act? It has to start at home first.

HEmanZ 2mo ago
There is absolutely nothing that will end American democracy faster than jailing Trump. The moment it becomes clear that the cost of losing is personal jail time for you and your family, every politician in the game has to start playing for blood, and everyone with power has to chose rubicon or jail. If Trump goes to prison, that’s when I leave, because that will be the moment historians point to as “no going back”.
- krapp 2mo ago
  The United States isn't a monarchy, we fought a whole war to establish that. Our leaders aren't meant to be above the law. If our "democracy" can't survive putting even a President in jail for their crimes than it doesn't deserve to survive. And I reject your premise that putting one's leaders in jail will only lead to an infinite spiral of partisan kangaroo courts because other democracies manage to hold their leaders to legal account without going into a death spiral. And it's honestly weird and more than a bit disturbing how controversial that simple concept has become. I guess we really do want kings here.
  - HEmanZ 2mo ago
    [flagged]
    - krapp 2mo ago
      > If you only support democracy when your side wins then you are just an authoritarian who wants democratic cover. Yeah, no. Obviously not what I said, or what my comment implied, and you're not even trying to respond in good faith.
      - HEmanZ 2mo ago
        No sorry I’ll be more nuanced. Unless Trump does something egregious enough in the coming years that the case against him is rock solid, black and white, and heavy, any move to jail him and those around him is impossible to distinguish from political targeting. I have not seen evidence of something out of line enough, no matter what Reddit hive mind thinks. So with the knowledge I have, I’d say any serious push to jail him and his team would be terrifying. If we get crystal evidence of bribery that holds up in court and is clear enough to sway a large swath of Republicans, then that’s great. Still a worse outcome than there not being something black and white to nail him with, but I think that case democracy survives. But not “trumped up” charges.
        Alacart 2mo ago
        It’s a good thing that they’ve committed many blatant and easily provable criminal acts then. The type you spend the rest of your life in prison for, if you’re not being protected by captured systems. Market manipulation, insider trading, embezzlement are all happening obviously and publicly, just to start. Bribery and corruption at many levels, illegal use of things like ICE, illegal detention, ignoring and abusing courts and the judicial system, whatever the hell they’re doing with crypto, the list is basically whatever crime you can think of. I understand you, and that it will mean republicans and their base won’t be swayed, which will create huge problems. But we’re well past the point that anything would ever sway them. There’s no easy way out now, the choice is being increasingly abused by them forever or taking the hits now to stop it. Pulling punches now will only ensure that it comes back 10x worse later.
  - fooo1882992 2mo ago
    What if Trump retroactively pardons himself and his family for all possible crimes in the past 10 years, the same way Biden did?
    - krapp 2mo ago
      Biden didn't pardon himself afaik. But... that's still perfectly legal, isn't it? All of these little backdoors the founding fathers added to the executive as some vestigial organ of monarchical power just because they couldn't trust the people in "we the people" maybe should be reconsidered. If we don't want presidents to be able to pardon themselves and anyone else without limit, there are ways to make that happen. Never even bothering to convict any president of a crime doesn't even attempt to fix that problem however.
    - 8note 2mo ago
      congress can impeach him, which makes those pardons null
      - valleyer 2mo ago
        The U.S. constitution does not say that. Where are you getting that from? It does say that the president cannot pardon an impeachment, but that's not the same thing at all.
    - gWPVhyxPHqvk 2mo ago
      Pack the Supreme Court, rule them invalid, and proceed with the plan. Also, you know that "the same way Biden did" is under a completely different situation than this.
  - redeeman 2mo ago
    and do other countries really put their criminal official in jail? do they establish any kind of restitution to the victims? can you really point to a single government where they dont illegally communicate outside of logged channels, or any such things, to scam the voters? or where they intentionally promise something they have zero intention of keeping, or lying about whether its possible. and of course some such things are not considered crimes because the very people who would then be violating the law would be the ones who MAKE the law. the vast majority of politicians worldwide are super criminals doing things that if you or I did even 1/100 what they did, they would lock us up and throw away the keys.
    - a2ff6eeb0 2mo ago
      South Korea and Israel are two notable examples.
- tene80i 2mo ago
  The cost of losing is only jail time for criminals. Your alternative is a carte blanche for any number of crimes in office.
  - HEmanZ 2mo ago
    My point isn’t “president should be above law”. My point is that, if Trump and admin go to prison on charges that are not so strong that it sways a large portion of the public and republicans, we’re fucked. Regardless of the underlying truth of the case, regardless of what I think is just or unjust, we’re fucked. Because unless it’s convincing enough that republicans also agree, then it’s death spiral. So I’m hoping the justice department either doesn’t have enough of a case to convict, or has enough of a case that the whole country falls in line. The in between, it’s time to get out. Because shit will go downhill very fast.
    - justin66 2mo ago
      > Because unless it’s convincing enough that republicans also agree, then it’s death spiral. So what you're saying is that the Republicans would become an angry party consisting of those who embrace impunity for their politicians regardless of the brazenness with which they break the law. I really cannot imagine what that would be like.
    - kashunstva 2mo ago
      It’s reasonably clear to anyone paying attention that Trump has been systematically engaging in various flavours of corruption. Prosecuting the man for illegal activities isn’t predicated on his party losing an election; it would be a matter of law. If you cannot support upholding the law because of some fear that MAGA would revolt, then the downfall you predict isn’t a remote event, it’s already here.
    - unethical_ban 2mo ago
      Then the republic of already dead, because republicans will never believe their eyes.
- 8note 2mo ago
  democracy is already dead of you cant jail trump when he does crimes
  - gWPVhyxPHqvk 2mo ago
    Right, we've already crossed the parent commenter's "no going back point" if we can't hold our leaders accountable. We instead have a king with a different title.
- tremon 2mo ago
  > The moment it becomes clear that the cost of losing is personal jail time for you and your family That has always been clear, seeing how it is the default mode of operation for empires throughout history. The solution here is separation of powers: the ruler itself is bound by rules and institutions that provide a check on their power, and in turn those institutions protect the ruler after stepping down. It is Trump and the Republican party that chose to abandon that solution. There already is no going back from that choice.
8note 2mo ago
That still will not convince anyone to trust the US. At any moment a new US president and congress can come in and do the same thing. a de-nazification program similar to germany post-WW2, combined with a shredding and full rewrite of the US Constitution by western allies to bring it in line with estonia's as an example, in addition to clearing house with the Trumps is the kinda thing that would start building trust
- Grosvenor 2mo ago
  Why bring the constitution in line with Estonia's? What's special about them?
- unethical_ban 2mo ago
  I think the above person is correct, and you are on the right track. I'm not hopeful for a full Constitutional Convention, but every possible effort by any means must be made to put into law every "unwritten norm" that the Trump administration took advantage of. Impeachment is the mechanism to remove a rogue president, and the entire GOP is party to a "soft coup" against the Constitution of the United States. I agree it will take a complete societal rejection of MAGA and the Unitary Executive theory for allies to ever trust the US again.
- irishcoffee 2mo ago
  I can just about garuntee you that civil war will happen in the US before it allows other to write its constitution. That is a hell of a take.

HEmanZ 2mo ago

There is absolutely nothing that will end American democracy faster than jailing Trump. The moment it becomes clear that the cost of losing is personal jail time for you and your family, every politician in the game has to start playing for blood, and everyone with power has to chose rubicon or jail. If Trump goes to prison, that’s when I leave, because that will be the moment historians point to as “no going back”.

krapp 2mo ago
The United States isn't a monarchy, we fought a whole war to establish that. Our leaders aren't meant to be above the law. If our "democracy" can't survive putting even a President in jail for their crimes than it doesn't deserve to survive. And I reject your premise that putting one's leaders in jail will only lead to an infinite spiral of partisan kangaroo courts because other democracies manage to hold their leaders to legal account without going into a death spiral. And it's honestly weird and more than a bit disturbing how controversial that simple concept has become. I guess we really do want kings here.
- HEmanZ 2mo ago
  [flagged]
  - krapp 2mo ago
    > If you only support democracy when your side wins then you are just an authoritarian who wants democratic cover. Yeah, no. Obviously not what I said, or what my comment implied, and you're not even trying to respond in good faith.
    - HEmanZ 2mo ago
      No sorry I’ll be more nuanced. Unless Trump does something egregious enough in the coming years that the case against him is rock solid, black and white, and heavy, any move to jail him and those around him is impossible to distinguish from political targeting. I have not seen evidence of something out of line enough, no matter what Reddit hive mind thinks. So with the knowledge I have, I’d say any serious push to jail him and his team would be terrifying. If we get crystal evidence of bribery that holds up in court and is clear enough to sway a large swath of Republicans, then that’s great. Still a worse outcome than there not being something black and white to nail him with, but I think that case democracy survives. But not “trumped up” charges.
      - Alacart 2mo ago
        It’s a good thing that they’ve committed many blatant and easily provable criminal acts then. The type you spend the rest of your life in prison for, if you’re not being protected by captured systems. Market manipulation, insider trading, embezzlement are all happening obviously and publicly, just to start. Bribery and corruption at many levels, illegal use of things like ICE, illegal detention, ignoring and abusing courts and the judicial system, whatever the hell they’re doing with crypto, the list is basically whatever crime you can think of. I understand you, and that it will mean republicans and their base won’t be swayed, which will create huge problems. But we’re well past the point that anything would ever sway them. There’s no easy way out now, the choice is being increasingly abused by them forever or taking the hits now to stop it. Pulling punches now will only ensure that it comes back 10x worse later.
- fooo1882992 2mo ago
  What if Trump retroactively pardons himself and his family for all possible crimes in the past 10 years, the same way Biden did?
  - krapp 2mo ago
    Biden didn't pardon himself afaik. But... that's still perfectly legal, isn't it? All of these little backdoors the founding fathers added to the executive as some vestigial organ of monarchical power just because they couldn't trust the people in "we the people" maybe should be reconsidered. If we don't want presidents to be able to pardon themselves and anyone else without limit, there are ways to make that happen. Never even bothering to convict any president of a crime doesn't even attempt to fix that problem however.
  - 8note 2mo ago
    congress can impeach him, which makes those pardons null
    - valleyer 2mo ago
      The U.S. constitution does not say that. Where are you getting that from? It does say that the president cannot pardon an impeachment, but that's not the same thing at all.
  - gWPVhyxPHqvk 2mo ago
    Pack the Supreme Court, rule them invalid, and proceed with the plan. Also, you know that "the same way Biden did" is under a completely different situation than this.
- redeeman 2mo ago
  and do other countries really put their criminal official in jail? do they establish any kind of restitution to the victims? can you really point to a single government where they dont illegally communicate outside of logged channels, or any such things, to scam the voters? or where they intentionally promise something they have zero intention of keeping, or lying about whether its possible. and of course some such things are not considered crimes because the very people who would then be violating the law would be the ones who MAKE the law. the vast majority of politicians worldwide are super criminals doing things that if you or I did even 1/100 what they did, they would lock us up and throw away the keys.
  - a2ff6eeb0 2mo ago
    South Korea and Israel are two notable examples.
tene80i 2mo ago
The cost of losing is only jail time for criminals. Your alternative is a carte blanche for any number of crimes in office.
- HEmanZ 2mo ago
  My point isn’t “president should be above law”. My point is that, if Trump and admin go to prison on charges that are not so strong that it sways a large portion of the public and republicans, we’re fucked. Regardless of the underlying truth of the case, regardless of what I think is just or unjust, we’re fucked. Because unless it’s convincing enough that republicans also agree, then it’s death spiral. So I’m hoping the justice department either doesn’t have enough of a case to convict, or has enough of a case that the whole country falls in line. The in between, it’s time to get out. Because shit will go downhill very fast.
  - justin66 2mo ago
    > Because unless it’s convincing enough that republicans also agree, then it’s death spiral. So what you're saying is that the Republicans would become an angry party consisting of those who embrace impunity for their politicians regardless of the brazenness with which they break the law. I really cannot imagine what that would be like.
  - kashunstva 2mo ago
    It’s reasonably clear to anyone paying attention that Trump has been systematically engaging in various flavours of corruption. Prosecuting the man for illegal activities isn’t predicated on his party losing an election; it would be a matter of law. If you cannot support upholding the law because of some fear that MAGA would revolt, then the downfall you predict isn’t a remote event, it’s already here.
  - unethical_ban 2mo ago
    Then the republic of already dead, because republicans will never believe their eyes.
8note 2mo ago
democracy is already dead of you cant jail trump when he does crimes
- gWPVhyxPHqvk 2mo ago
  Right, we've already crossed the parent commenter's "no going back point" if we can't hold our leaders accountable. We instead have a king with a different title.
tremon 2mo ago
> The moment it becomes clear that the cost of losing is personal jail time for you and your family That has always been clear, seeing how it is the default mode of operation for empires throughout history. The solution here is separation of powers: the ruler itself is bound by rules and institutions that provide a check on their power, and in turn those institutions protect the ruler after stepping down. It is Trump and the Republican party that chose to abandon that solution. There already is no going back from that choice.

8note 2mo ago

That still will not convince anyone to trust the US. At any moment a new US president and congress can come in and do the same thing. a de-nazification program similar to germany post-WW2, combined with a shredding and full rewrite of the US Constitution by western allies to bring it in line with estonia's as an example, in addition to clearing house with the Trumps is the kinda thing that would start building trust

Grosvenor 2mo ago
Why bring the constitution in line with Estonia's? What's special about them?
unethical_ban 2mo ago
I think the above person is correct, and you are on the right track. I'm not hopeful for a full Constitutional Convention, but every possible effort by any means must be made to put into law every "unwritten norm" that the Trump administration took advantage of. Impeachment is the mechanism to remove a rogue president, and the entire GOP is party to a "soft coup" against the Constitution of the United States. I agree it will take a complete societal rejection of MAGA and the Unitary Executive theory for allies to ever trust the US again.
irishcoffee 2mo ago
I can just about garuntee you that civil war will happen in the US before it allows other to write its constitution. That is a hell of a take.