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> All this is going to achieve is pushing Canada much closer to other countries The world is watching this story just like the world watched Davos. Last night

> All this is going to achieve is pushing Canada much closer to other countries The world is watching this story just like the world watched Davos. Last night will encourage further decoupling of the US for nations other than Canada. idk if Trump 2028 will happen or not. I will say with conviction no matter who is in office by then will not rebuild trust around the world in their tenure. Too much damage is done to the US's reputation.

gWPVhyxPHqvk 1mo ago
> I will say with conviction no matter who is in office by then will not rebuild trust around the world in their tenure. Too much damage is done to the US's reputation. The only way that the US can start rebuilding this trust is that the incoming Democratic President and Congress (assuming we are so lucky) immediately starts by prosecuting Trump and his family (and results in actual jail time, not just fines or small stays), zero out their government contracts, fire most of the people installed in government since 2025, expand the Supreme Court, and remove the fillibuster. I know people think ideas like that are extreme, but really, what else is going to convince the rest of the world that the US has cleaned up their act? It has to start at home first.
- HEmanZ 1mo ago
  There is absolutely nothing that will end American democracy faster than jailing Trump. The moment it becomes clear that the cost of losing is personal jail time for you and your family, every politician in the game has to start playing for blood, and everyone with power has to chose rubicon or jail. If Trump goes to prison, that’s when I leave, because that will be the moment historians point to as “no going back”.
  - krapp 1mo ago
    The United States isn't a monarchy, we fought a whole war to establish that. Our leaders aren't meant to be above the law. If our "democracy" can't survive putting even a President in jail for their crimes than it doesn't deserve to survive. And I reject your premise that putting one's leaders in jail will only lead to an infinite spiral of partisan kangaroo courts because other democracies manage to hold their leaders to legal account without going into a death spiral. And it's honestly weird and more than a bit disturbing how controversial that simple concept has become. I guess we really do want kings here.
    - HEmanZ 1mo ago
      [flagged]
      - krapp 1mo ago
        > If you only support democracy when your side wins then you are just an authoritarian who wants democratic cover. Yeah, no. Obviously not what I said, or what my comment implied, and you're not even trying to respond in good faith.
        HEmanZ 1mo ago
        No sorry I’ll be more nuanced. Unless Trump does something egregious enough in the coming years that the case against him is rock solid, black and white, and heavy, any move to jail him and those around him is impossible to distinguish from political targeting. I have not seen evidence of something out of line enough, no matter what Reddit hive mind thinks. So with the knowledge I have, I’d say any serious push to jail him and his team would be terrifying. If we get crystal evidence of bribery that holds up in court and is clear enough to sway a large swath of Republicans, then that’s great. Still a worse outcome than there not being something black and white to nail him with, but I think that case democracy survives. But not “trumped up” charges.
        Alacart 1mo ago
        It’s a good thing that they’ve committed many blatant and easily provable criminal acts then. The type you spend the rest of your life in prison for, if you’re not being protected by captured systems. Market manipulation, insider trading, embezzlement are all happening obviously and publicly, just to start. Bribery and corruption at many levels, illegal use of things like ICE, illegal detention, ignoring and abusing courts and the judicial system, whatever the hell they’re doing with crypto, the list is basically whatever crime you can think of. I understand you, and that it will mean republicans and their base won’t be swayed, which will create huge problems. But we’re well past the point that anything would ever sway them. There’s no easy way out now, the choice is being increasingly abused by them forever or taking the hits now to stop it. Pulling punches now will only ensure that it comes back 10x worse later.
  - tene80i 1mo ago
    The cost of losing is only jail time for criminals. Your alternative is a carte blanche for any number of crimes in office.
    - HEmanZ 1mo ago
      My point isn’t “president should be above law”. My point is that, if Trump and admin go to prison on charges that are not so strong that it sways a large portion of the public and republicans, we’re fucked. Regardless of the underlying truth of the case, regardless of what I think is just or unjust, we’re fucked. Because unless it’s convincing enough that republicans also agree, then it’s death spiral. So I’m hoping the justice department either doesn’t have enough of a case to convict, or has enough of a case that the whole country falls in line. The in between, it’s time to get out. Because shit will go downhill very fast.
      - justin66 1mo ago
        > Because unless it’s convincing enough that republicans also agree, then it’s death spiral. So what you're saying is that the Republicans would become an angry party consisting of those who embrace impunity for their politicians regardless of the brazenness with which they break the law. I really cannot imagine what that would be like.
      - kashunstva 1mo ago
        It’s reasonably clear to anyone paying attention that Trump has been systematically engaging in various flavours of corruption. Prosecuting the man for illegal activities isn’t predicated on his party losing an election; it would be a matter of law. If you cannot support upholding the law because of some fear that MAGA would revolt, then the downfall you predict isn’t a remote event, it’s already here.
      - unethical_ban 1mo ago
        Then the republic of already dead, because republicans will never believe their eyes.
  - 8note 1mo ago
    democracy is already dead of you cant jail trump when he does crimes
    - gWPVhyxPHqvk 1mo ago
      Right, we've already crossed the parent commenter's "no going back point" if we can't hold our leaders accountable. We instead have a king with a different title.
  - tremon 1mo ago
    > The moment it becomes clear that the cost of losing is personal jail time for you and your family That has always been clear, seeing how it is the default mode of operation for empires throughout history. The solution here is separation of powers: the ruler itself is bound by rules and institutions that provide a check on their power, and in turn those institutions protect the ruler after stepping down. It is Trump and the Republican party that chose to abandon that solution. There already is no going back from that choice.
- 8note 1mo ago
  That still will not convince anyone to trust the US. At any moment a new US president and congress can come in and do the same thing. a de-nazification program similar to germany post-WW2, combined with a shredding and full rewrite of the US Constitution by western allies to bring it in line with estonia's as an example, in addition to clearing house with the Trumps is the kinda thing that would start building trust
  - Grosvenor 1mo ago
    Why bring the constitution in line with Estonia's? What's special about them?
  - unethical_ban 1mo ago
    I think the above person is correct, and you are on the right track. I'm not hopeful for a full Constitutional Convention, but every possible effort by any means must be made to put into law every "unwritten norm" that the Trump administration took advantage of. Impeachment is the mechanism to remove a rogue president, and the entire GOP is party to a "soft coup" against the Constitution of the United States. I agree it will take a complete societal rejection of MAGA and the Unitary Executive theory for allies to ever trust the US again.
  - irishcoffee 1mo ago
    I can just about garuntee you that civil war will happen in the US before it allows other to write its constitution. That is a hell of a take.

gWPVhyxPHqvk 1mo ago

> I will say with conviction no matter who is in office by then will not rebuild trust around the world in their tenure. Too much damage is done to the US's reputation. The only way that the US can start rebuilding this trust is that the incoming Democratic President and Congress (assuming we are so lucky) immediately starts by prosecuting Trump and his family (and results in actual jail time, not just fines or small stays), zero out their government contracts, fire most of the people installed in government since 2025, expand the Supreme Court, and remove the fillibuster. I know people think ideas like that are extreme, but really, what else is going to convince the rest of the world that the US has cleaned up their act? It has to start at home first.

HEmanZ 1mo ago
There is absolutely nothing that will end American democracy faster than jailing Trump. The moment it becomes clear that the cost of losing is personal jail time for you and your family, every politician in the game has to start playing for blood, and everyone with power has to chose rubicon or jail. If Trump goes to prison, that’s when I leave, because that will be the moment historians point to as “no going back”.
- krapp 1mo ago
  The United States isn't a monarchy, we fought a whole war to establish that. Our leaders aren't meant to be above the law. If our "democracy" can't survive putting even a President in jail for their crimes than it doesn't deserve to survive. And I reject your premise that putting one's leaders in jail will only lead to an infinite spiral of partisan kangaroo courts because other democracies manage to hold their leaders to legal account without going into a death spiral. And it's honestly weird and more than a bit disturbing how controversial that simple concept has become. I guess we really do want kings here.
  - HEmanZ 1mo ago
    [flagged]
    - krapp 1mo ago
      > If you only support democracy when your side wins then you are just an authoritarian who wants democratic cover. Yeah, no. Obviously not what I said, or what my comment implied, and you're not even trying to respond in good faith.
      - HEmanZ 1mo ago
        No sorry I’ll be more nuanced. Unless Trump does something egregious enough in the coming years that the case against him is rock solid, black and white, and heavy, any move to jail him and those around him is impossible to distinguish from political targeting. I have not seen evidence of something out of line enough, no matter what Reddit hive mind thinks. So with the knowledge I have, I’d say any serious push to jail him and his team would be terrifying. If we get crystal evidence of bribery that holds up in court and is clear enough to sway a large swath of Republicans, then that’s great. Still a worse outcome than there not being something black and white to nail him with, but I think that case democracy survives. But not “trumped up” charges.
        Alacart 1mo ago
        It’s a good thing that they’ve committed many blatant and easily provable criminal acts then. The type you spend the rest of your life in prison for, if you’re not being protected by captured systems. Market manipulation, insider trading, embezzlement are all happening obviously and publicly, just to start. Bribery and corruption at many levels, illegal use of things like ICE, illegal detention, ignoring and abusing courts and the judicial system, whatever the hell they’re doing with crypto, the list is basically whatever crime you can think of. I understand you, and that it will mean republicans and their base won’t be swayed, which will create huge problems. But we’re well past the point that anything would ever sway them. There’s no easy way out now, the choice is being increasingly abused by them forever or taking the hits now to stop it. Pulling punches now will only ensure that it comes back 10x worse later.
- tene80i 1mo ago
  The cost of losing is only jail time for criminals. Your alternative is a carte blanche for any number of crimes in office.
  - HEmanZ 1mo ago
    My point isn’t “president should be above law”. My point is that, if Trump and admin go to prison on charges that are not so strong that it sways a large portion of the public and republicans, we’re fucked. Regardless of the underlying truth of the case, regardless of what I think is just or unjust, we’re fucked. Because unless it’s convincing enough that republicans also agree, then it’s death spiral. So I’m hoping the justice department either doesn’t have enough of a case to convict, or has enough of a case that the whole country falls in line. The in between, it’s time to get out. Because shit will go downhill very fast.
    - justin66 1mo ago
      > Because unless it’s convincing enough that republicans also agree, then it’s death spiral. So what you're saying is that the Republicans would become an angry party consisting of those who embrace impunity for their politicians regardless of the brazenness with which they break the law. I really cannot imagine what that would be like.
    - kashunstva 1mo ago
      It’s reasonably clear to anyone paying attention that Trump has been systematically engaging in various flavours of corruption. Prosecuting the man for illegal activities isn’t predicated on his party losing an election; it would be a matter of law. If you cannot support upholding the law because of some fear that MAGA would revolt, then the downfall you predict isn’t a remote event, it’s already here.
    - unethical_ban 1mo ago
      Then the republic of already dead, because republicans will never believe their eyes.
- 8note 1mo ago
  democracy is already dead of you cant jail trump when he does crimes
  - gWPVhyxPHqvk 1mo ago
    Right, we've already crossed the parent commenter's "no going back point" if we can't hold our leaders accountable. We instead have a king with a different title.
- tremon 1mo ago
  > The moment it becomes clear that the cost of losing is personal jail time for you and your family That has always been clear, seeing how it is the default mode of operation for empires throughout history. The solution here is separation of powers: the ruler itself is bound by rules and institutions that provide a check on their power, and in turn those institutions protect the ruler after stepping down. It is Trump and the Republican party that chose to abandon that solution. There already is no going back from that choice.
8note 1mo ago
That still will not convince anyone to trust the US. At any moment a new US president and congress can come in and do the same thing. a de-nazification program similar to germany post-WW2, combined with a shredding and full rewrite of the US Constitution by western allies to bring it in line with estonia's as an example, in addition to clearing house with the Trumps is the kinda thing that would start building trust
- Grosvenor 1mo ago
  Why bring the constitution in line with Estonia's? What's special about them?
- unethical_ban 1mo ago
  I think the above person is correct, and you are on the right track. I'm not hopeful for a full Constitutional Convention, but every possible effort by any means must be made to put into law every "unwritten norm" that the Trump administration took advantage of. Impeachment is the mechanism to remove a rogue president, and the entire GOP is party to a "soft coup" against the Constitution of the United States. I agree it will take a complete societal rejection of MAGA and the Unitary Executive theory for allies to ever trust the US again.
- irishcoffee 1mo ago
  I can just about garuntee you that civil war will happen in the US before it allows other to write its constitution. That is a hell of a take.