4 ms·

Its nice to see some backbone, but the challenge for Canada is that it’s broadly in a weak negotiating position here. Generally speaking Canadian companies need

by cmiles8 2mo ago

Its nice to see some backbone, but the challenge for Canada is that it’s broadly in a weak negotiating position here. Generally speaking Canadian companies need access to the US market a lot more than US companies need access to the Canadian market.

dennis_jeeves2 2mo ago
>Canada is that it’s broadly in a weak negotiating position here. That's an understatement. Hypothetically if Canada were isolated from the world, it would regress in the quality of life in 10 years. The most capable Canadians have moved out, mostly to the US. The average Canadian has unwarranted sense of nationalistic pride about them (compared to their neighbors). Isolate US from the world, and assuming that the govt does not meddle too much with local businesses, in 10 years they will bounce back to being more self sufficient than it is now.
- poncho_romero 2mo ago
  This is a useless hypothetical. Almost every country would regress in quality of life if it were suddenly cut off from the global economy. The options aren’t a bad deal from the US or complete isolation. Canada is making deals with reliable partners abroad.
- THX1137 2mo ago
  By definition if you isolate a country from the world it would be more self sufficient that very moment than it is the moment before it is isolated. Isn't that obvious?
  - dennis_jeeves2 2mo ago
    Agreed self-sufficiency isn't the best term. But if I were to rephrase it, let say that self-sufficiency in terms of the quality of life - US would be in much better shape than Canada. Canada has _significantly_ much more to lose than the US.
    - THX1137 2mo ago
      Sure, but you don't need that hypothetical to explain that. The USA produces and consumes more goods than Canada. Overall people are resilient and able to survive such disruptions. I'd rather be sovereign and poorer than whatever kind of second-class "American" status the USA would grant us forcibly annexed Canadians. To me that's more to lose than every loonie in my bank account.
      - dennis_jeeves2 2mo ago
        > I'd rather be sovereign and poorer than whatever kind of second-class "American" status the USA would grant us forcibly annexed Canadians The biggest 'enemy' of Canada is not America(s). It's the Canadian govt itself. Most Canadians cave into their tribal instinct of 'us versus them' and cannot see past that own manipulative govt. Canada has not only proportionately significantly more trade restrictions (between countries) compare to US, but it also have significant restrictions to trade and free market within Canada: example quotas on milk, dairy, beef and chicken. There are more taxes at every stage of a transaction with little benefits ( yes people mention 'free' health care but it's another subject). Relatively unaffordable housing mostly due to taxation (For example the tax part of condo in Toronto/Vancouver is cumulatively about 35%) etc. Just to be clear both govts of US and Canada are tyrannical. Americans on an average distrust their govt more than Canadians - hence they overall do better in keeping their govt overreach in check.
        THX1137 2mo ago
        True, I did watch the Americans keep their government in check when they did not attack Iraq in 2003 and when they did not attack Iran recently. They kept their government in check when they did not kill school girls in Iran. They kept their government in check when government agents did not kill US citizens protesting government overreach, not to mention all the times the American people prevented their government from killing, kidnapping, arresting, torturing and imprisoning undocumented people. I greet the bane to tyranny, these beautiful American souls, whose hearts are gladdened only by life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
  - Peaches4Rent 2mo ago
    Just so you know, I think comments like these are just unproductive. Its one thing to correct the meaning of the word "self sufficient" and its straight up bad faith to talk past the actual meaning of the comment
- testing22321 2mo ago
  > The average Canadian has unwarranted sense of nationalistic pride about them (compared to their neighbors). If you think Canadians have more nationalistic pride than Americans, you seriously need to get glasses. Americans literally pledge themselves to their country every day of school.
  - dennis_jeeves2 2mo ago
    You understand the word 'average'?
    - testing22321 2mo ago
      Absolutely. Literally every American has been force fed nationalistic pride propaganda since their first days at school, continuing for 12 years. Never mind the average American. They’re all stuffed full of it.
softwaredoug 2mo ago
This is true somewhat, but keep in mind the 50% tariffs aren’t on all goods. They’re on like 5% of exports. Plus when one side is an unreliable negotiator (the US) there’s not much rational behind continuing.
ricardobeat 2mo ago
One would think so, but is that really true? Some numbers I just got: - the US imports 60-70% of its oil from Canada - 100% of the natural gas - 85% of energy imports - 25% of Uranium - 20% of all mineral imports, ahead of China - the Great Lakes hold >80% of the USA's fresh water - patrolling the almost 9000km border is mostly up to Canada Despite the size disparities, they run close to a trade equilibrium: US exports $420B, imports $450B. There is a lot on the line for the US.
- Waterluvian 2mo ago
  And Canada has also been passing up an absolutely enormous opportunity for industrial growth by spending generations supporting American industry by remaining a primary resources economy.
  - cmrdporcupine 2mo ago
    ... by choice/design of its own leadership :-( Man, I remember watching the '88 election debate as a young teen. So many people were saying this then. Look at us now.
    - steve_adams_86 2mo ago
      I was only 2 in ‘88, but the story is the same from my perspective. I think so much about how to get my city to incentivize more manufacturing industry. The small amount we do have is the most lucrative use of the space in the municipality on a square foot basis, yet the city makes it far more difficult than is necessary to start these types of businesses. Worse still is that this type of space, relative to population, is decreasing when it should be increasing. We have SO MUCH potential in Canada. It’s incredible. The only thing stopping us is ourselves. What drives me nuts too is that my kids find work in places like tourist traps and Tim Hortons. When I was a kid I got to learn to build things, use tools and machines, use my body, plan projects (albeit very menial ones in my teens), and figure out what the hell all this abstract stuff in school was really for. I was applying math, drafting simple designs, writing to customers about orders, and using skills I hadn’t found real-world uses for up until that point. They’re missing out so much. But our city is, too. My kids are worth far more than serving coffee and frying fish and chips for tourists. And they’d be worth even more in ten years if real opportunities existed here. They’d have knowledge and skills they’ll never find in those places. It really drives me crazy. So much wasted potential. We can do better, but we need policies that enable us to do it.

by cmiles8 2mo ago

dennis_jeeves2 2mo ago

>Canada is that it’s broadly in a weak negotiating position here. That's an understatement. Hypothetically if Canada were isolated from the world, it would regress in the quality of life in 10 years. The most capable Canadians have moved out, mostly to the US. The average Canadian has unwarranted sense of nationalistic pride about them (compared to their neighbors). Isolate US from the world, and assuming that the govt does not meddle too much with local businesses, in 10 years they will bounce back to being more self sufficient than it is now.

poncho_romero 2mo ago
This is a useless hypothetical. Almost every country would regress in quality of life if it were suddenly cut off from the global economy. The options aren’t a bad deal from the US or complete isolation. Canada is making deals with reliable partners abroad.
THX1137 2mo ago
By definition if you isolate a country from the world it would be more self sufficient that very moment than it is the moment before it is isolated. Isn't that obvious?
- dennis_jeeves2 2mo ago
  Agreed self-sufficiency isn't the best term. But if I were to rephrase it, let say that self-sufficiency in terms of the quality of life - US would be in much better shape than Canada. Canada has _significantly_ much more to lose than the US.
  - THX1137 2mo ago
    Sure, but you don't need that hypothetical to explain that. The USA produces and consumes more goods than Canada. Overall people are resilient and able to survive such disruptions. I'd rather be sovereign and poorer than whatever kind of second-class "American" status the USA would grant us forcibly annexed Canadians. To me that's more to lose than every loonie in my bank account.
    - dennis_jeeves2 2mo ago
      > I'd rather be sovereign and poorer than whatever kind of second-class "American" status the USA would grant us forcibly annexed Canadians The biggest 'enemy' of Canada is not America(s). It's the Canadian govt itself. Most Canadians cave into their tribal instinct of 'us versus them' and cannot see past that own manipulative govt. Canada has not only proportionately significantly more trade restrictions (between countries) compare to US, but it also have significant restrictions to trade and free market within Canada: example quotas on milk, dairy, beef and chicken. There are more taxes at every stage of a transaction with little benefits ( yes people mention 'free' health care but it's another subject). Relatively unaffordable housing mostly due to taxation (For example the tax part of condo in Toronto/Vancouver is cumulatively about 35%) etc. Just to be clear both govts of US and Canada are tyrannical. Americans on an average distrust their govt more than Canadians - hence they overall do better in keeping their govt overreach in check.
      - THX1137 2mo ago
        True, I did watch the Americans keep their government in check when they did not attack Iraq in 2003 and when they did not attack Iran recently. They kept their government in check when they did not kill school girls in Iran. They kept their government in check when government agents did not kill US citizens protesting government overreach, not to mention all the times the American people prevented their government from killing, kidnapping, arresting, torturing and imprisoning undocumented people. I greet the bane to tyranny, these beautiful American souls, whose hearts are gladdened only by life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
- Peaches4Rent 2mo ago
  Just so you know, I think comments like these are just unproductive. Its one thing to correct the meaning of the word "self sufficient" and its straight up bad faith to talk past the actual meaning of the comment
testing22321 2mo ago
> The average Canadian has unwarranted sense of nationalistic pride about them (compared to their neighbors). If you think Canadians have more nationalistic pride than Americans, you seriously need to get glasses. Americans literally pledge themselves to their country every day of school.
- dennis_jeeves2 2mo ago
  You understand the word 'average'?
  - testing22321 2mo ago
    Absolutely. Literally every American has been force fed nationalistic pride propaganda since their first days at school, continuing for 12 years. Never mind the average American. They’re all stuffed full of it.

softwaredoug 2mo ago

This is true somewhat, but keep in mind the 50% tariffs aren’t on all goods. They’re on like 5% of exports. Plus when one side is an unreliable negotiator (the US) there’s not much rational behind continuing.

ricardobeat 2mo ago

One would think so, but is that really true? Some numbers I just got: - the US imports 60-70% of its oil from Canada - 100% of the natural gas - 85% of energy imports - 25% of Uranium - 20% of all mineral imports, ahead of China - the Great Lakes hold >80% of the USA's fresh water - patrolling the almost 9000km border is mostly up to Canada Despite the size disparities, they run close to a trade equilibrium: US exports $420B, imports $450B. There is a lot on the line for the US.

Waterluvian 2mo ago
And Canada has also been passing up an absolutely enormous opportunity for industrial growth by spending generations supporting American industry by remaining a primary resources economy.
- cmrdporcupine 2mo ago
  ... by choice/design of its own leadership :-( Man, I remember watching the '88 election debate as a young teen. So many people were saying this then. Look at us now.
  - steve_adams_86 2mo ago
    I was only 2 in ‘88, but the story is the same from my perspective. I think so much about how to get my city to incentivize more manufacturing industry. The small amount we do have is the most lucrative use of the space in the municipality on a square foot basis, yet the city makes it far more difficult than is necessary to start these types of businesses. Worse still is that this type of space, relative to population, is decreasing when it should be increasing. We have SO MUCH potential in Canada. It’s incredible. The only thing stopping us is ourselves. What drives me nuts too is that my kids find work in places like tourist traps and Tim Hortons. When I was a kid I got to learn to build things, use tools and machines, use my body, plan projects (albeit very menial ones in my teens), and figure out what the hell all this abstract stuff in school was really for. I was applying math, drafting simple designs, writing to customers about orders, and using skills I hadn’t found real-world uses for up until that point. They’re missing out so much. But our city is, too. My kids are worth far more than serving coffee and frying fish and chips for tourists. And they’d be worth even more in ten years if real opportunities existed here. They’d have knowledge and skills they’ll never find in those places. It really drives me crazy. So much wasted potential. We can do better, but we need policies that enable us to do it.