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No, thanks. I don't want a mere "user" interface, I want a programmer's interface. I don't like the command line because I'm a "unix nerd", I like it because it

No, thanks. I don't want a mere "user" interface, I want a programmer's interface. I don't like the command line because I'm a "unix nerd", I like it because it lets me rapidly cook up little programs and execute them. Here's an example I just pulled out of my shell history: c=3afba1a; reset; laptop "virtdev ssh liblinux -- git -C liblinux format-patch -1 ${c} --stdout" | tee /dev/tty | termux-clipboard-set This huge oneliner clears the screen, logs into my laptop via ssh, then logs into my development virtual machine, then generates a patch from the specified commit, and this data gets piped into my Termux terminal and my phone's clipboard. Then I paste it into the ChatGPT app for code review. I didn't need to think to write this, I just wrote it right there in the terminal using the shell's line editor, just because I needed it, and it completely solved my problem. It's as easy as pressing up on keyboard now, and I can easily turn it into a script if needed. Nobody had to bend over backwards to add monstruous features to the apps to accomodate me. I knew what my computer needed to do, and I made it do it. In my opinion we need more of this, not less. More unix and less iphones.

embedding-shape 2mo ago
I agree, authors whole "The time has come to re-evaluate terminal and command line interfaces." is weird, if anything we should be moving MORE towards terminal and command line usage. Another example from recent history, I just wanted a easy way to mount all connected drives, so whipped up: lsblk -l | grep -i part | cut -d " " -f 1 | xargs -I{} sudo mount -m /dev/{} /mnt/{} # automount_all How would you even approach this with a GUI? You'd need something like Automator or whatever is called on macOS, then manually pipe GUI elements together (or some other way?), and finally there is no automated way of actually testing that it works, so once it breaks because the inevitable OS upgrade, you'll need to manually fix it. Then whatever solution you came up with or used, is almost never reusable for other things. Meanwhile, a shell alias/function just sits there, easy to see what it does, can control anything in your computer, GUI or not (one way or another), lets you build up your own "database" of tools that all compose together (again one way or another) and finally is easy to put under automated testing.
- croes 2mo ago
  The article is not against CLIs but TUIs. It’s extra mentioned that CLIs are mostly a good idea but TUIs aren’t.
  - embedding-shape 2mo ago
    > The article is not against CLIs but TUIs. Isn't it against both? Maybe I'm reading it wrong then, because things like these certainly seem against CLIs: > Back in 1999, Neal Stephenson wrote an essay about command line interfaces that set the field of human-computer interaction back about 20 years. In it, he depicts the priesthood of Unix nerds wielding CLIs as powerful Morlocks, holding the entire computing industry on their shoulders. > If you haven’t tried your hand at turning one of your 500 throwaway CLIs into a native app, you’re doing yourself a disservice. Maybe I'm missed something else, but I certainly got the impression the author isn't very impressed by CLIs.
    - croes 2mo ago
      From the article > CLIs have purposes for which they’re irreplaceable. Building a CLI is almost always a good idea. Building a TUI almost never is.
unchar1 2mo ago
From the article > CLIs have purposes for which they’re irreplaceable. Building a CLI is almost always a good idea. Building a TUI almost never is. You're also arguing for CLIs which are absolutely great. But TUIs provide none of the composability of CLIs nor the malleability of GUIs
- matheusmoreira 2mo ago
  It's a fine point if made in isolation, but TUIs tend to be more technical and useful simply because they require using a terminal at all. GUIs tend to be made for the non-technical iPhone audience. So while I'm not fundamentally opposed to graphics, I'm absolutely opposed to the "average user" culture surrounding it. I don't care about the "normal person", I don't want "user experiences" that hide the computer, I want all of the computer's primitives exposed so that I have full control. https://contemporary-home-computing.org/RUE/ https://contemporary-home-computing.org/RUE/
  - TylerE 2mo ago
    > GUIs tend to be made for the non-technical iPhone audience. Except for, you know, every serious professional application ever.
    - okanat 2mo ago
      Yeah. This is Unix nerd bs and toxic behavior and silly belief that only terminals deliver complex behavior. I was visiting a radio test lab in last February for our new product. They use a professional software which was written in WPF. The assistant there was flying with the keyboard shortcuts. I recommend every self-describing Unix or terminal fan to watch videos of photo or video editors / VFX people on YouTube. They are hella fast.
      - FireCrack 2mo ago
        Absolutely true. But the OPs statement is not without merit. While there is a lot of professional software for which GUI is the correct choice, there is also a lot of "GUI slop" which is just a GUI to look good on marketing and to be easier to onboard new users at the expense of long term effectiveness.
regularfry 2mo ago
One version of this is "every application is actually a repl with ideas". I do wish the lisp community cared more about GUIs because it feels like there's a huge gap where exactly this sort of extensibility could be merged with precisely the richer sort of visual interaction the article wants.
LudwigNagasena 2mo ago
That example doesn't use any TUI.
- matheusmoreira 2mo ago
  The line editing in my shell is absolutely an example of a TUI. It's a simple text editor embedded in the command line.
  - ijcisnfjsj 2mo ago
    [flagged]
singpolyma3 2mo ago
TUIs are not CLI programs though. They're GUIs which render in a terminal
- matheusmoreira 2mo ago
  The shell's line editor is a TUI. It's a simple text editor embedded right there in the command line. It can even render your shell history by pressing the arrow keys.
  - singpolyma3 2mo ago
    Sure yes. A terminal is a GUI. But it's a GUI used to both run cli programs (which can be piped etc) and TUIs (which cannot)

embedding-shape 2mo ago

I agree, authors whole "The time has come to re-evaluate terminal and command line interfaces." is weird, if anything we should be moving MORE towards terminal and command line usage. Another example from recent history, I just wanted a easy way to mount all connected drives, so whipped up: lsblk -l | grep -i part | cut -d " " -f 1 | xargs -I{} sudo mount -m /dev/{} /mnt/{} # automount_all How would you even approach this with a GUI? You'd need something like Automator or whatever is called on macOS, then manually pipe GUI elements together (or some other way?), and finally there is no automated way of actually testing that it works, so once it breaks because the inevitable OS upgrade, you'll need to manually fix it. Then whatever solution you came up with or used, is almost never reusable for other things. Meanwhile, a shell alias/function just sits there, easy to see what it does, can control anything in your computer, GUI or not (one way or another), lets you build up your own "database" of tools that all compose together (again one way or another) and finally is easy to put under automated testing.

croes 2mo ago
The article is not against CLIs but TUIs. It’s extra mentioned that CLIs are mostly a good idea but TUIs aren’t.
- embedding-shape 2mo ago
  > The article is not against CLIs but TUIs. Isn't it against both? Maybe I'm reading it wrong then, because things like these certainly seem against CLIs: > Back in 1999, Neal Stephenson wrote an essay about command line interfaces that set the field of human-computer interaction back about 20 years. In it, he depicts the priesthood of Unix nerds wielding CLIs as powerful Morlocks, holding the entire computing industry on their shoulders. > If you haven’t tried your hand at turning one of your 500 throwaway CLIs into a native app, you’re doing yourself a disservice. Maybe I'm missed something else, but I certainly got the impression the author isn't very impressed by CLIs.
  - croes 2mo ago
    From the article > CLIs have purposes for which they’re irreplaceable. Building a CLI is almost always a good idea. Building a TUI almost never is.

unchar1 2mo ago

From the article > CLIs have purposes for which they’re irreplaceable. Building a CLI is almost always a good idea. Building a TUI almost never is. You're also arguing for CLIs which are absolutely great. But TUIs provide none of the composability of CLIs nor the malleability of GUIs

matheusmoreira 2mo ago
It's a fine point if made in isolation, but TUIs tend to be more technical and useful simply because they require using a terminal at all. GUIs tend to be made for the non-technical iPhone audience. So while I'm not fundamentally opposed to graphics, I'm absolutely opposed to the "average user" culture surrounding it. I don't care about the "normal person", I don't want "user experiences" that hide the computer, I want all of the computer's primitives exposed so that I have full control. https://contemporary-home-computing.org/RUE/ https://contemporary-home-computing.org/RUE/
- TylerE 2mo ago
  > GUIs tend to be made for the non-technical iPhone audience. Except for, you know, every serious professional application ever.
  - okanat 2mo ago
    Yeah. This is Unix nerd bs and toxic behavior and silly belief that only terminals deliver complex behavior. I was visiting a radio test lab in last February for our new product. They use a professional software which was written in WPF. The assistant there was flying with the keyboard shortcuts. I recommend every self-describing Unix or terminal fan to watch videos of photo or video editors / VFX people on YouTube. They are hella fast.
    - FireCrack 2mo ago
      Absolutely true. But the OPs statement is not without merit. While there is a lot of professional software for which GUI is the correct choice, there is also a lot of "GUI slop" which is just a GUI to look good on marketing and to be easier to onboard new users at the expense of long term effectiveness.

regularfry 2mo ago

One version of this is "every application is actually a repl with ideas". I do wish the lisp community cared more about GUIs because it feels like there's a huge gap where exactly this sort of extensibility could be merged with precisely the richer sort of visual interaction the article wants.

LudwigNagasena 2mo ago

That example doesn't use any TUI.

matheusmoreira 2mo ago
The line editing in my shell is absolutely an example of a TUI. It's a simple text editor embedded in the command line.
- ijcisnfjsj 2mo ago
  [flagged]

singpolyma3 2mo ago

TUIs are not CLI programs though. They're GUIs which render in a terminal

matheusmoreira 2mo ago
The shell's line editor is a TUI. It's a simple text editor embedded right there in the command line. It can even render your shell history by pressing the arrow keys.
- singpolyma3 2mo ago
  Sure yes. A terminal is a GUI. But it's a GUI used to both run cli programs (which can be piped etc) and TUIs (which cannot)