4 ms·

That's fair for a well-scoped subroutine: what I meant is that if you ask an agent to write a compiler and let it rip for a few days, you are going to be spendi

by mccoyb 1mo ago

That's fair for a well-scoped subroutine: what I meant is that if you ask an agent to write a compiler and let it rip for a few days, you are going to be spending a few more days correcting the default behaviors in the distribution, which often do not tend towards hardware-oriented design. To correct those behaviors, you're going to write tools and skills, and that's going to help, but it is still clear that you are fighting the distribution (today).

deleted 1mo ago
[deleted]
embedding-shape 1mo ago
Yes, say "Build a compiler" will require you to clean up stuff if you leave the agent for days, but not because of the LLM or the quality of the tool, but because you hardly specified anything, so of course it's gonna make assumptions you need to correct. If you instead spend a day writing a proper specification, then ask the agent to spend a week implementing that, you'll need zero tools and skills afterwards to clean it up, because there won't be any misunderstandings, assumptions or other things, just code fulfilling what the specification says. Granted, this does require you to not use obviously dumb models, like anything you can run locally today, and at least within reasonable range of SOTA models. But they been able to do this for 6 months or more at this point.
- n4r9 1mo ago
  You're making assumptions; OP made no mention of how detailed their spec was.
  - embedding-shape 1mo ago
    Indeed, you're right, I did do assumptions, based on what I could understand from it, and also based on my own experience using these tools too. May be their specification is very detailed and exactly as they wish it to be, yet the agent creates something completely else, then probably something else than the specification is wrong, and my comment is pointless :)
- mccoyb 1mo ago
  Bro, what the fuck do you think I’m doing? Do you think I don’t know about spec driven development? What is the most complicated thing you’ve built with LM agents? Have you done it with a single spec? How novel was it? This comment is so laughably “you’re holding it wrong” I can’t respond to you seriously. > If you instead spend a day writing a proper specification, then ask the agent to spend a week implementing that, you'll need zero tools and skills afterwards to clean it up, because there won't be any misunderstandings, assumptions or other things The set of software that has followed this process is measure zero.
  - embedding-shape 1mo ago
    > Bro, what the fuck do you think I’m doing? Do you think I don’t know about spec driven development? Bro, I don't know you, and have no idea what you do, except for the parts you share in your comment, like talking to a LLM :) If you say "if you ask an agent to write a compiler" and don't expand on that, I'll take your word for it. I'm glad you got a laugh, and didn't take it so serious :) Not entirely sure why you got so defensive, but it's all good, again I don't know you, sorry if it felt like I called you stupid or something. At least some other people found it helpful I suppose, so in the end it sucks you're unable to get value from a process I've found working for me, hope you'll find something that works out for you in the end, regardless of what it is!
    - mccoyb 1mo ago
      I'm still interested in your claim: > If you instead spend a day writing a proper specification, then ask the agent to spend a week implementing that, you'll need zero tools and skills afterwards to clean it up, because there won't be any misunderstandings, assumptions or other things, just code fulfilling what the specification says. Are you claiming that you reliably get good software out of agents using this process? My experiential claim is that I've followed this process for complex pieces of software (and, often, taking significantly longer than a day -- more like several weeks, as if I was writing an academic paper) and they still get it wrong ... even with an "academic paper level spec" Models: only the best, Fable 5 max, Sol 5.6 max, yada yada -- I'm not convinced this process works for "serious endeavors" (for instance: let's build a novel accelerator compiler or let's build a new incremental linker) where "serious" here means "something where I'll likely be spending multiple weeks working on it"

by mccoyb 1mo ago

deleted 1mo ago

[deleted]

embedding-shape 1mo ago

Yes, say "Build a compiler" will require you to clean up stuff if you leave the agent for days, but not because of the LLM or the quality of the tool, but because you hardly specified anything, so of course it's gonna make assumptions you need to correct. If you instead spend a day writing a proper specification, then ask the agent to spend a week implementing that, you'll need zero tools and skills afterwards to clean it up, because there won't be any misunderstandings, assumptions or other things, just code fulfilling what the specification says. Granted, this does require you to not use obviously dumb models, like anything you can run locally today, and at least within reasonable range of SOTA models. But they been able to do this for 6 months or more at this point.

n4r9 1mo ago
You're making assumptions; OP made no mention of how detailed their spec was.
- embedding-shape 1mo ago
  Indeed, you're right, I did do assumptions, based on what I could understand from it, and also based on my own experience using these tools too. May be their specification is very detailed and exactly as they wish it to be, yet the agent creates something completely else, then probably something else than the specification is wrong, and my comment is pointless :)
mccoyb 1mo ago
Bro, what the fuck do you think I’m doing? Do you think I don’t know about spec driven development? What is the most complicated thing you’ve built with LM agents? Have you done it with a single spec? How novel was it? This comment is so laughably “you’re holding it wrong” I can’t respond to you seriously. > If you instead spend a day writing a proper specification, then ask the agent to spend a week implementing that, you'll need zero tools and skills afterwards to clean it up, because there won't be any misunderstandings, assumptions or other things The set of software that has followed this process is measure zero.
- embedding-shape 1mo ago
  > Bro, what the fuck do you think I’m doing? Do you think I don’t know about spec driven development? Bro, I don't know you, and have no idea what you do, except for the parts you share in your comment, like talking to a LLM :) If you say "if you ask an agent to write a compiler" and don't expand on that, I'll take your word for it. I'm glad you got a laugh, and didn't take it so serious :) Not entirely sure why you got so defensive, but it's all good, again I don't know you, sorry if it felt like I called you stupid or something. At least some other people found it helpful I suppose, so in the end it sucks you're unable to get value from a process I've found working for me, hope you'll find something that works out for you in the end, regardless of what it is!
  - mccoyb 1mo ago
    I'm still interested in your claim: > If you instead spend a day writing a proper specification, then ask the agent to spend a week implementing that, you'll need zero tools and skills afterwards to clean it up, because there won't be any misunderstandings, assumptions or other things, just code fulfilling what the specification says. Are you claiming that you reliably get good software out of agents using this process? My experiential claim is that I've followed this process for complex pieces of software (and, often, taking significantly longer than a day -- more like several weeks, as if I was writing an academic paper) and they still get it wrong ... even with an "academic paper level spec" Models: only the best, Fable 5 max, Sol 5.6 max, yada yada -- I'm not convinced this process works for "serious endeavors" (for instance: let's build a novel accelerator compiler or let's build a new incremental linker) where "serious" here means "something where I'll likely be spending multiple weeks working on it"