5 ms·

Be that as it may, observe that the directions are opposite. Planning, attempting to, or helping people escape (not stay) was the #1 reason for Stasi arrests.

Be that as it may, observe that the directions are opposite. Planning, attempting to, or helping people escape (not stay) was the #1 reason for Stasi arrests. Specifically, the most frequent Stasi arrest charges were Republikflucht ("fleeing the republic") and Fluchthelfer ("helping others flee") Also, the Stasi ran on roughly 1 informant per 60–180 residents. Your network of friends, family, co-workers, and neighbors would have several. They officially criminalized private speech, correspondence and travel. The US surveillance system is bad, but the Stasi informant network and set of official consequences was at such a level as to cause constant fear and dread for everyone.

nelox 2mo ago
Indeed. The rising flood of people feeling East for West Berlin was the very reason for the construction of the Berlin Wall.
- bentley 1mo ago
  “Berlin Wall”? You mean the Antifaschistischer Schutzwall.
inigyou 1mo ago
So it's not the same unless it's the exact same? Like, with such good technology now, why would they waste time on so many informants? A Flock camera can replace several informants.
- TimTheTinker 1mo ago
  So you don't think there's any difference between - as a citizen, being arrested for trying to leave - as an illegal alien, being arrested for trying to stay Those are literally structural opposites of each other.
  - dredmorbius 1mo ago
    Both are restrictions on freedom of movement.
    - TimTheTinker 1mo ago
      Have you ever traveled internationally? Every country I've ever been to especially in Europe had strict rules about how long I could stay. Iceland and the UK in particular. They wouldn't even let me in at London Heathrow without a printed out return ticket (I had to run over to the British Airways desk to get a copy). Either way - I was not allowed to stay longer than a few weeks. That's not a wrong thing, it's very normal. If you want to stay, you have to apply for residency.
      - dredmorbius 1mo ago
        U.S. reliance on immigrant labour is key to this discussion, and strongly colours all elements. It is a direct legacy of early slave labour (Blacks in the East, native Americans in the West) as well as indentured servitude. Importation of an underprivileged labour class dates to the first days of the Republic as well, and includes the Germans, Irish, Italians, Greeks, Chinese ("coolies"), Mexicans ("Braceros"), and in the post-WWII era an increasing number of Central and Latin American immigrants. By 1) relying on such labour and 2) denying either lawful entry or any plausible path to permanent status for the vast majority of these workers and their families, not to mention many, many, many broken promises along the way (asylum, DREAM Act, don't get me started on Native American treaties), the U.S. has de facto maintained a legally-underprivileged and disadvantaged working class long after the statutory prohibition of (most) slavery and indentured servitude. Yes, there are also economic and political circumstances within the US geopolitical orbit which encourage inward migration. That too cannot be separated from long-standing U.S. foreign, economic, and military policies within the region.
        TimTheTinker 1mo ago
        Bingo. The Democratic Party supported slavery, and they're still at it with modern illegal immigration. This needs to stop.

nelox 2mo ago

Indeed. The rising flood of people feeling East for West Berlin was the very reason for the construction of the Berlin Wall.

bentley 1mo ago
“Berlin Wall”? You mean the Antifaschistischer Schutzwall.

inigyou 1mo ago

So it's not the same unless it's the exact same? Like, with such good technology now, why would they waste time on so many informants? A Flock camera can replace several informants.

TimTheTinker 1mo ago
So you don't think there's any difference between - as a citizen, being arrested for trying to leave - as an illegal alien, being arrested for trying to stay Those are literally structural opposites of each other.
- dredmorbius 1mo ago
  Both are restrictions on freedom of movement.
  - TimTheTinker 1mo ago
    Have you ever traveled internationally? Every country I've ever been to especially in Europe had strict rules about how long I could stay. Iceland and the UK in particular. They wouldn't even let me in at London Heathrow without a printed out return ticket (I had to run over to the British Airways desk to get a copy). Either way - I was not allowed to stay longer than a few weeks. That's not a wrong thing, it's very normal. If you want to stay, you have to apply for residency.
    - dredmorbius 1mo ago
      U.S. reliance on immigrant labour is key to this discussion, and strongly colours all elements. It is a direct legacy of early slave labour (Blacks in the East, native Americans in the West) as well as indentured servitude. Importation of an underprivileged labour class dates to the first days of the Republic as well, and includes the Germans, Irish, Italians, Greeks, Chinese ("coolies"), Mexicans ("Braceros"), and in the post-WWII era an increasing number of Central and Latin American immigrants. By 1) relying on such labour and 2) denying either lawful entry or any plausible path to permanent status for the vast majority of these workers and their families, not to mention many, many, many broken promises along the way (asylum, DREAM Act, don't get me started on Native American treaties), the U.S. has de facto maintained a legally-underprivileged and disadvantaged working class long after the statutory prohibition of (most) slavery and indentured servitude. Yes, there are also economic and political circumstances within the US geopolitical orbit which encourage inward migration. That too cannot be separated from long-standing U.S. foreign, economic, and military policies within the region.
      - TimTheTinker 1mo ago
        Bingo. The Democratic Party supported slavery, and they're still at it with modern illegal immigration. This needs to stop.