3 ms·

Luckily, that isn't how the law works. Or is supposed to work, anyway. You cannot, for example, sell yourself as a slave to somebody else, because slavery is il

by 9dev 1mo ago

Luckily, that isn't how the law works. Or is supposed to work, anyway. You cannot, for example, sell yourself as a slave to somebody else, because slavery is illegal - even if you opt into it. So whether something is a felony isn't decided by the victim, but the rules of law, and that means breaching a security system without authorization is illegal, no matter what you think.

Fricken 1mo ago
I could show up at your doorstep, declare myself at your service, and then spend the rest of my days catering to your every beck and whim. There's no law against that. Can it even be slavery if it's voluntary?
- 9dev 1mo ago
  That's not slavery, because you only declare yourself at my service, but you never sign a contract giving your rights away in exchange for something. That's the part you cannot do, regardless of whether it's voluntary.
  - Terr_ 1mo ago
    IANAL, but I think there are three aspects to this which should be teased-apart: 1. Contract terms that require committing a crime are void and unenforceable. 2. "A contract made me do it" is not a defense to a crime. 3. "The victim gave me permission" is not always a defense to a crime.
Terr_ 1mo ago
To put it another way, crimes are usually [0] only something the government can/must prosecute, victims don't get to choose. The media-popularized phrase "would you like to press charges" isn't asking for your permission, it's asking if you're willing you be helpful. So HuggingFace's corporate opinion here shouldn't (normatively) matter very much. [0] "Private right of action" with a civil trial comes close.
ThrustVectoring 1mo ago
That actually is how the law works. You can read the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act at https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1030 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1030 and double check, but these felonies all require knowingly or intentionally accessing a computer etc. These aren't strict liability statutes - the government must prove mens rea to a jury in order to get a conviction at trial.
- 9dev 1mo ago
  I was specifically referring to the fact that HuggingFace cannot chose not to litigate, because litigation doesn't depend on the victim's opinion - prosecution of felonies is imperative to the authorities (whether they actually fulfil their role is another question these days, sadly…) But anyway, I don't think our laws currently have the right vocabulary to describe an AI agent committing a crime, because intent doesn't apply to a computer program. The closest I can think of is neglect by the computer programs human initiator, who should have taken the steps necessary to prevent the program from causing harm. But I'm pretty sure these questions will be subject to a lot of professional discussion in the coming decades anyway.
- inigyou 1mo ago
  Oftentimes the process is the punishment. They ruin your life for two or more years even if they ultimately don't get a conviction, you still suffered for two years. And there's certainly enough evidence to start the process.
hirvi74 1mo ago
It does not matter if something is a felony if the state refuses to press charges. Take a look at the mass of pedophile politicians we have, the police that indulge and protect them, etc..
a96 1mo ago
I would expect you can actually sell yourself as a slave. The contract won't be binding, since it's illegal and the people involved could be charged if caught. But you could. (IANAL YJMV TIEMFF)
- 9dev 1mo ago
  That can is rendered entirely meaningless by the conditions in that statement. In the same sense you can also declare yourself king of the USA.
  - a96 1mo ago
    I see what you mean, but declaring yourself a king doesn't actually cause anything physical. It'll be make believe with no real consequences. Becoming a slave can essentially physically make you a real slave and both parties of the contract can live the rest of their lives as a slave and a slave owner. It's only the ephemeral concept of law that doesn't happen. They're essentially completely opposite scenarios.
    - 9dev 1mo ago
      Fair point, I hadn’t considered that angle. That said, I still think you can construct many scenarios where your consent to prosecution as a victim are meaningless from a legal perspective. For a closer example to the original consideration, assume a person that is abused by their spouse: There is a good reason why the abuse will be prosecuted regardless of that person's wishes if authorities are made aware of the abuse.
      - a96 1mo ago
        Legal perspective, yes. I'm mostly of the mind that law and reality are almost entirely disconnected with a very small contact patch. And that funnily enough contracts and contract breaches are on the side of reality until someone decides to take an argument to court.

by 9dev 1mo ago

Fricken 1mo ago

I could show up at your doorstep, declare myself at your service, and then spend the rest of my days catering to your every beck and whim. There's no law against that. Can it even be slavery if it's voluntary?

9dev 1mo ago
That's not slavery, because you only declare yourself at my service, but you never sign a contract giving your rights away in exchange for something. That's the part you cannot do, regardless of whether it's voluntary.
- Terr_ 1mo ago
  IANAL, but I think there are three aspects to this which should be teased-apart: 1. Contract terms that require committing a crime are void and unenforceable. 2. "A contract made me do it" is not a defense to a crime. 3. "The victim gave me permission" is not always a defense to a crime.

Terr_ 1mo ago

To put it another way, crimes are usually [0] only something the government can/must prosecute, victims don't get to choose. The media-popularized phrase "would you like to press charges" isn't asking for your permission, it's asking if you're willing you be helpful. So HuggingFace's corporate opinion here shouldn't (normatively) matter very much. [0] "Private right of action" with a civil trial comes close.

ThrustVectoring 1mo ago

That actually is how the law works. You can read the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act at https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1030 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1030 and double check, but these felonies all require knowingly or intentionally accessing a computer etc. These aren't strict liability statutes - the government must prove mens rea to a jury in order to get a conviction at trial.

9dev 1mo ago
I was specifically referring to the fact that HuggingFace cannot chose not to litigate, because litigation doesn't depend on the victim's opinion - prosecution of felonies is imperative to the authorities (whether they actually fulfil their role is another question these days, sadly…) But anyway, I don't think our laws currently have the right vocabulary to describe an AI agent committing a crime, because intent doesn't apply to a computer program. The closest I can think of is neglect by the computer programs human initiator, who should have taken the steps necessary to prevent the program from causing harm. But I'm pretty sure these questions will be subject to a lot of professional discussion in the coming decades anyway.
inigyou 1mo ago
Oftentimes the process is the punishment. They ruin your life for two or more years even if they ultimately don't get a conviction, you still suffered for two years. And there's certainly enough evidence to start the process.

hirvi74 1mo ago

It does not matter if something is a felony if the state refuses to press charges. Take a look at the mass of pedophile politicians we have, the police that indulge and protect them, etc..

a96 1mo ago

I would expect you can actually sell yourself as a slave. The contract won't be binding, since it's illegal and the people involved could be charged if caught. But you could. (IANAL YJMV TIEMFF)

9dev 1mo ago
That can is rendered entirely meaningless by the conditions in that statement. In the same sense you can also declare yourself king of the USA.
- a96 1mo ago
  I see what you mean, but declaring yourself a king doesn't actually cause anything physical. It'll be make believe with no real consequences. Becoming a slave can essentially physically make you a real slave and both parties of the contract can live the rest of their lives as a slave and a slave owner. It's only the ephemeral concept of law that doesn't happen. They're essentially completely opposite scenarios.
  - 9dev 1mo ago
    Fair point, I hadn’t considered that angle. That said, I still think you can construct many scenarios where your consent to prosecution as a victim are meaningless from a legal perspective. For a closer example to the original consideration, assume a person that is abused by their spouse: There is a good reason why the abuse will be prosecuted regardless of that person's wishes if authorities are made aware of the abuse.
    - a96 1mo ago
      Legal perspective, yes. I'm mostly of the mind that law and reality are almost entirely disconnected with a very small contact patch. And that funnily enough contracts and contract breaches are on the side of reality until someone decides to take an argument to court.